Body Confidence Isn’t About Loving Every Inch: Here’s What Works

Jessica Setnick, MS, RD, CEDRD-S, is a nationally recognized eating disorder specialist who brings both professional expertise and deeply personal experience to the conversation. Together, we explore the intersections of menopause, body image, and eating behaviors, and how these complex issues show up throughout a woman’s life.

Jessica shares her own journey navigating perimenopause while reflecting on how childhood experiences and cultural pressures continue to influence our relationship with food as adults. She reminds us that eating struggles, whether diagnosable disorders or not, are worthy of compassion, understanding, and support.

Her insights offer practical tools for anyone seeking to love and appreciate their body.

https://healingyourinnereater.com/ promo code "podcast" for a discount on her workbook

Jessica mentioned the book Life Without Ed: How One Woman Declared Independence from Her Eating Disorder and How You Can Too

https://wellelephant.com/

https://wellelephant.com/ecookbook/

https://discover.wellelephant.com/ace-plant-based-eating-course-reg/

Follow us and reach out at:

Email: lauren@agelikeabadassmother.com

Facebook: @WellElephant

Instagram: @agelikeabadassmother 

https://www.youtube.com/@agelikeabadassmother

#BodyImageHealing, #MenopauseWellness, #HealthyRelationshipWithFood, #EatingBehaviorAwareness, #MidlifeBodyConfidence, #PlantBasedLiving, #SelfLoveJourney, #WomenOver40Health, #AgeLikeABadassMother, #JessicaSetnick, #GenX, #Podcast,

Transcript

0:00

Hi friends! My guest this week is registered dietitian Jessica Swetnick. We are talking about the intersection of body image, eating behaviors, and menopause. This is a really good reminder about loving and appreciating your body. I know at times it can be difficult, but our bodies do so much for us and this is a good talk. I'm also spending the first few minutes talking about eating a whole food plant based diet, because I truly believe it's the fountain of youth when it comes to your health, and I'm trying to break it down into very small, manageable pieces in case you're interested. So please send me your questions at Lauren at age like a badass mother, and hopefully I can answer them on the podcast. And don't forget, you can watch this interview on YouTube. And please don't forget to like and subscribe to the podcast wherever you watch or listen and see the show notes. For information about my free cookbook or my online class. Okay, here we go. Hi friend, are you looking to age healthfully, confidently and vibrantly? Then this podcast is for you. Smart, slightly salty, irreverent, and thought provoking. I'm Lauren Bernick and this is age. Like a badass mother. Hi, friends. Okay, so I'm trying to break down eating a whole food plant based diet to make it a little bit easier in case you're interested in this week, I want to talk about one of my big tools. This is what I call home base. My main meal and I eat some version of this. I can't even tell you. Probably. At least I'm going to say three four times a week. This is just something that I have on hand all the time. So I don't, you know, have my head in the refrigerator going, what am I going to eat? And it's simple. It's really a bowl. It's some version of a legume. So it's beans, peas, lentils just usually let's say beans or lentils a whole grain. So quinoa or brown rice would be the main ones. Some steamed greens. I love kale, bok choy. The those are probably the ones I go to the most. But you could do spinach, you could do Swiss chard, you could do beet greens. Those are not all my favorites. And then just some other steamed vegetables. I do broccoli, cauliflower. I do a lot of, zucchini or squash or carrots or just any kind, of any kind of steamed vegetable you like. And then you can even do, you know, a small piece of sweet potato. You could do some tempeh or some tofu. I have all kinds of videos on my YouTube channel, The Age Like a Badass Mother YouTube channel, and I show you how to cook tofu. There's also this recipe for home based. The main meal is in my free cookbook at, well, elephant.com and in my online class I talk about it, but it's simple. So you have that bowl with, you know, a bean or lentil and a whole grain like brown rice or quinoa and some steamed greens like kale and some other vegetables. You can even have some sliced beets. And then you want to put a sauce. There's also, you know, just Google whole food plant based, oil free sauces and there's a million. There's also some in my cookbook. Like I always say, it doesn't have to be for me. It just has to be something you like. I want you to eat it. Want to to want to eat it. I love to put some coconut aminos on my, brown rice or quinoa. I think it makes it tastes really good. I like to put some saroja on my beans and lentils, and I kind of just put it all over the whole thing. One of my favorite sauces that I make all the time is a pumpkin seed cilantro sauce. That's in my, whole food plant based cookbook that's free at, well, elephant.com. Again, it doesn't have to be that you can Google whole food plant based, oil free sauces, just get something you like and just put a little bit it just, you know, and that's one of the ways you could just change up the flavor all the time. So you're eating essentially the same bowl, but you're changing the beans. You're changing the grains. You're changing the sauces. It's kind of like, you know, remember animals, the mix and match like it's the same kind of concept. So that's what you're going to do when you don't know what to eat. You're going to eat this bowl. And every time you eat this bowl you are voting yes to your health. And that's what I love about it. It's so simple. So, you know, email me if you have any questions. Lauren at age like a badass mother.com okay, now here's Jessica Swetnick. Oh! Jessica Swetnick is the best kind of dietician. Knows her stuff, but doesn't take herself too seriously. An eating disorder specialist in recovery from her own eating disorder for over 30 years. Jessica noticed that perimenopause dredged up some of her old food and body issues, and she knows she is not the only one. The good news is that the same tools and skills she's taught for 25 years as an eating disorder specialist can help all of us. So join us to talk about her experiences and what she's learned that can help you too. Please welcome Jessica Swetnick. Hello, Jessica. Hi. Wonderful to be here. And I left that for some reason that in that introduction, I was just really nodding along. Yeah. I got my estrogen patch on right now, working its way through my system. And, boy, it's a whole new adventure. Yeah. So are you just in perimenopause right now? Yeah. Yeah. So I had. Okay. TMI alert had a stroke. There's no TMI here. Okay. Thank you. In my 30s, I had a hysterectomy, so I had I. But they left my ovaries, so I'm going through menopause. But I didn't have the sign of not having a period to alert me or an irregular period. So it was just chemical. I just had to sort of notice it, like my sleep was disrupted. I think I'm gaining weight. My hair is falling out. Go to the doctor, get tested. Find out. Yeah. Welcome to to menopause. Yeah. Welcome. Yeah. I'm going through perimenopause too. And it's. I mean, I have to be honest, I really haven't had that much that many issues. I, I did have the hair loss a couple of years ago. But other than that, I just feel, you know, I feel pretty good. So the hot flashes were my biggest clue. That was the thing that could not be attributed to anything else. That was just the wow. Wow. Wow. Was it just like when you were sleeping or. No. No, it was. I would just be doing anything, and then it would just be like the heat of a thousand sun coming out of my face. And everyone else looked fine, and I wanted to rip all my clothes off and turn on the fan or stand in front of the freezer. Oh my God. So is your estrogen patch helping 100% one. I can tell, I can tell if I forgot to replace it if I start having a hot flash. Oh that's good. Okay. Well, good. Yeah. I mean, it's nice that it's something so easily fixable. I know that's not the case for many women. Yeah. So is it just estrogen in your patch right now? Yes. Just estrogen. But I'm going for a hair consultant, the dermatologist, next week. So we'll see what she recommends. Okay. Well let me know. So was tell me about your your background. Like, when you were growing up. Like, what kind of did your family eat? Pretty healthy. Or was food stressed or what? What was a sitch? Wow, that is such an interesting question because in general, we always had enough food gratefully. But at the same time I felt poor. And I. I attribute that to the fact that my dad grew up during the depression. He was born in 1928, and my mom told me this very sad story about how his his dad used to take him and secretly buy him a toy that cost one penny. But he wasn't allowed to tell his mom because that was so sneaky. So really impoverished. And then his dad died when he was 12. And so he had to support his family. So fast forward to me as a kid saying, you know, can I have a dollar for ice cream. And him saying a dollar for ice cream. We had to borrow a nickel to go to the doctor. And it just made me feel kind of like a burden, you know, like we couldn't afford it. And so but again, I'm told now after the fact by my mom that it was okay, we could spend a dollar on ice cream, but it just felt like I wanted too much food, basically. And that that wasn't a good feeling. My dad died when I was 12, and so I never got to have these conversations with him as an adult. So I carried some of that. I wouldn't say food insecurity at all, but I had to do my own work on my own issues with eating. Personally, I think my dad's death contributed to my eating disorder just because of not having a father figure and having that traumatic event. And then certainly diet culture was probably the biggest influence. When I was in college, I went on my first diet and that's what led to my eating disorder. So you the onset was in college? Yes. But before then, you just felt like you shouldn't eat too much because it was costing your family money. That and and it just kind of a of maybe a fraught relationship with food and money. Both. Yeah. And so what. Okay. First tell me the different kind of eating disorders and then tell me what you had. Okay. So I, I'll preface by saying I'll tell you the names of the eating disorders. But I don't really love the way we organized eating disorders for two reasons. One is it puts people in boxes, and the second is that it makes it seem like if someone has a less severe problem, then it's no big deal until it becomes a severe eating disorder. And so I've really worked hard in my career to teach that problem eating behaviors, even if they don't rise to the level of an eating disorder. Still deserve to get help. Okay, then maybe I asked the wrong question. So what? Tell me how you would explain it then. Sure. I would tell me. I would explain it as dysfunctional or disruptive eating behaviors because the eating disorder diagnoses define people based on do you under eat? Do you overeat? But lots of people do both of those. So I think of it as behaviors. Not eating enough, eating too much. Not spacing out, eating. So you under eat and then overeat using compensatory behaviors because you feel guilt after eating over exercising. And note that these are all things that change brain chemistry so that it's at their root. They're not just bad behaviors. And that's a huge myth that I think people think it's bad choices, but it's really rooted in self-medication. Someone trying to make themselves feel better. And so it can come from either a medical condition where you have to restrict your eating. Most medical conditions that require a specific kind of eating, like celiac disease or food allergies or diabetes, are can can lead to an eating disorder, but also medical illnesses that don't at all. We don't think of them as requiring an eating change. Things like concussions can cause eating disorders. ADHD, depression, anxiety because they change either your appetite or your thinking about food or the medicines that you take for them. Change your appetite. So there's all kinds of paths to disruptive eating behaviors that are fall under that biological category. Then there's addiction. Addiction related dysfunctional eating behaviors come, about either on their own and then lead to a substance problem or substance use can then lead to eating problems. So that's a big mess. Then there's stress and trauma related disruptive eating problems. So, whether it's food insecurity or something stressful that's related to food or something stressful that has nothing to do with food that can disrupt your brain chemistry. And then we go self-medicate. And then there's the learned behavior, the diet culture that we live in. So I think of disruptive eating behaviors as where is the source. We have to get back to the source of it to solve it, rather than looking at the behavior and trying to just change the behavior because the behaviors serving a good purpose, essentially, it's self-medicating us from whatever the original source is. So I like to talk about disruptive or dysfunctional eating behaviors rather than eating disorders. Yeah. And so how did yours show up? So my I started with that first diet when I was in college over winter vacation. Maybe I had gained a few pounds in college. I don't remember that aspect of it, but I remember sort of the cottage cheese and cantaloupe type of diet over, you know, very popular, at that era over winter vacation and dropped, you know, a bit of weight. And then when I came back to college in January in my dorm, everyone got an award for something. And this is going to date me because Tommy Lasorda was a SlimFast ad. Oh yeah. Person I got the Tommy Lasorda Award for dramatic diminution. Fancy word. I remember that. So it was sort of like we noticed that over the vacation you lost a lot of weight. And so it felt like everyone's watching me. I have to sort of maintain this weight loss. Yeah, I was really hungry, so I wasn't eating very much at meals. And then in the middle of the night, I would find myself in the kitchen of my dorm eating like pieces of pie out of the refrigerator. And it wasn't long before that led to forcing myself to throw up. So my disorder was bulimia, never diagnosed, and that that was an issue in my mind because I had sort of looked into things. This was before Google, but I was taking nutrition classes and I felt like I didn't really have an eating disorder. And that's why I, I felt really opposed to that wording because it's like, if it's not this serious, then I didn't really have a problem. And so for a long time I minimized it. And then before I started graduate school for nutrition, I this began to get kind of graphic. But I remember sitting in front of the toilet after throwing up and thinking for the very first time, oh my God, that wasn't about the food, that was about feelings. It was like this moment that whatever I had eaten probably wasn't even that much. But it was because I went to this party in the boy I had a crush on didn't show up at the party like he said he would, and I was disappointed and I ended up. This is where I ended up sort of relieving my feelings. But they and I sort of made this pact with myself that if I was going to become a nutritionist and I was going to help other people with their eating, then this was not acceptable and I wasn't going to do this anymore. And so I sort of treated myself. If I felt like I felt that urge to throw up coming on, I would just drive around the block and not go home until it until it went away. And, it was really a, personal sort of commitment I made. Let's say it didn't necessarily make the urge go away just because I'd committed not to do it, but I was able to kind of get through it with sort of my commitment to being a, a nutritionist and being a role model. But my true recovery, really, the the underlying stuff didn't occur until I was in my late 20s and had a traumatic event happen in my life. I went to therapy for the first time and really started to look at all the underlying things that were driving my inability, let's say, to or feeling like I couldn't express my feelings, which had been coming out in food. Oh man. So it just seems like there was. So that's so crazy that this started with, like, recognition, like, oh, look at Jessica. She really slimmed down over the. Yeah. I mean that's crazy. Yeah. I mean, I remember that also happened to me as a child, but I was like seven years old. I was always like a chunky child. And I got the flu and I came back to school and I was like, I went from a chunky kid to a really like a thin, regular sized kid. Kids used to be thin back in the day, and, everybody was like, oh my God. All the parents and the teachers were all fussing over me and luckily that didn't turn into an eating disorder. But, you know, sure enough, I plumped back up pretty soon. And I do remember I went to this girl's house and her mother, took a snack out of my hand and threw it in the trash and said, you're going to get fat again. To me, it I mean, this is I know. That's that's what I'm talking about, that the idea that it's okay to comment on other people's bodies and what they're eating, even a seven year old, my goodness. Yeah, I. Know, and so I oh, and my mother was always on a diet. And so I always had that awareness. Like she always had me on the Atkins diet from a small child. And, you know, I, I've told this story that I'd wake up to her frying a hamburger for me for breakfast, no bun. And you know, she just always had me on a diet. She was always on a diet because she used to be heavy and then lost a lot of weight. Do well. And the interesting thing to point out, while you're telling this story is a lot of these things that we remember that the person who said these things, even my dad saying a dollar for ice cream, they're saying it out of love and they're saying it out of wanting to protect us from their own experience. But they don't realize what they're doing is they're dumping their shame on us. So it's not that they didn't love us or care about us, it's just that no one was saying, these are not appropriate things to say to a kid. And now we recognize that. Well, of course. And, you know, I guess I never had any kind of full blown eating disorder. Like I said, I was always dieting and this and that. I, I feel like I, I got away with that. I don't know how I never got an eating disorder, you know, from from all of that, but I do now. I did get heart disease from probably eating all that meat and, you know, who knows? And also genetics and whatever. So I think I shared with you, so that at 46, I was diagnosed with heart disease, and I've been on a whole food plant based diet ever since, and I lost 20 pounds. I've kept it off easily, and it's probably the first time in my life that I don't think about food obsessively because I know, okay, these are all the things I can eat, and it kind of cleared so much space in my brain because I was always worried that I'm going to gain 5 pounds if I eat this or fight that, and you know, it's it's been a really nice, eating plan for me just because, like, I eat more than I ever have, I eat whatever I want. I just have to modify it, make it whole food plant based. But at at the same time, my husband said, I think that is an eating disorder because, you know, being obsessed with eating. So healthfully and not ever straying from it. He's like that. I, I looked it up. Ortho, orthorexia, Nexium. I know you don't like to define things, but. No, no, no, I orthorexia is one that I, that I actually like. Where the idea is that the pursuit of perfect eating and the idea to me that's important is, is the way you eat. Is it disruptive to your life? Is it causing harm in your life? Is it threatening your life? Versus is it adding to your life? Is it helping you meet your goals? And so the same exact behavior to me can be defined as a problem behavior or a supportive behavior, depending on the individual. And that's where we have to really look at individual behaviors. Because what you're describing about previously being really preoccupied with your weight, maybe that doesn't count. I'm using finger quotes as an eating disorder as they are defined by doctors. But if that was disrupting your life, if that was causing you to avoid social functions, if that was causing you to spend too much money that you didn't have on certain foods or diets or diet pills or diet products, then that can be disruptive eating behavior, even if it doesn't qualify. Finger quote as an eating disorder. Now, the way you're currently eating it would take, you know, more investigation to find out if it was a problem. But that, to me is something that an outside person like your husband as well-meaning as he is, may not. He may have some insights that you don't have, or he may be just looking at the the fact that it it gets on his nerves. And so he says it's not it's not normal. Right. But the key is if this is helping you reach your goals of, you know, improving your health, if this is making you feel fulfilled, if you're able to stay nourished in this way, if you can afford the foods that you need and want. I mean, those are the things that we would assess to determine if it is a dysfunctional eating behavior or supportive eating behavior. So you really can't tell just from the behavior itself. You have to look at the motive and the outcome. Yeah, I think he was just reading an article and he's like, this sounds like you. You're obsessed. And because I, I stick to this way of eating, you know, very faithfully. But from what you're saying, if I don't think he meant anything by it, like. Because except the only thing that he ever like jokes about is like, when we're on vacation, I spend 50% of my time trying to find, you know, places where you could eat, but which is true. But, the thing is, like like I said, I think it's been really good for me because it's freed up my head space. It's changed my health. It's, I, I am eating more. I am eating more of a variety. I don't feel like it's hindered me in any way or that it's any kind of. Yeah. So then the two questions I would ask you is, do you feel confident, let's say when you go into a restaurant that you can ask for what you need and you're not like secretly eating other foods, you know, that kind of thing. Like you feel confident in your ability to to follow your plan. And then the other thing I would ask is, do you feel like, you can't do anything because of, you know, in other words, you can still go on vacation, right? So, so it's not impairing your functioning. But the other thing is, what if there were a mistake? What if you found out after you ate something, that there was something that's not on your list in it? Would you blame yourself? Would you shame yourself, or would you be able to sort of say that was a glitch and just move on? Yeah, no, I think everything is fine because, well, okay. In the restaurant, I do have to like, sneak food in sometimes, like my own salad dressing or whatever, but that's just my I don't care, like, so I don't feel like that's any problem for me, because that's just like, I have to sneak in my salad dressing because everything they're going to have oil in theirs or whatever. And I actually have had a situation where I was supposed to be getting like a plant based, ceviche, and they gave me the regular one. It had shrimp in it, and I had never had shrimp in my life just because before I started eating plant based, I just never wanted shrimp. It just never appealed to me. And so I didn't know what I was like, oh, this texture is really weird. Like, what is this? And I ate some of it. And then I asked them and they were like, oh, that's the real one. And I was very unhappy that they did that because they, you know, we had a discussion about it beforehand, but, I let it go. What could I do? I mean. Yeah. You know. I did the key. Same myself or whatever. And that, that I would say is it's really the, the key piece of information is that mistakes happen and you can live through it. And you might be annoyed, just like anyone would be annoyed if they got something they didn't order. Annoyed. Yeah, sure. That's legit, right? But it didn't mean you, you know, turned over the table or got to exercise for five hours or, you know, that kind of thing. It was nothing like that. So, so how did this show up in first of all, let me ask you this. Is this like, I guess this might not be a great question either. I'm not sure how you're going to feel about this one, but is this, like alcoholism that you say you're in recovery but you're never cured? Or does that matter? Or, you know, that's interesting because there is no consensus in the eating disorder field about this. There are polar opposites. There are people who will say they're cured, they're recovered. You can move on and have a good life without an eating disorder. And there are people who will say, it's always with you. It's just a matter of managing it. And I lean more toward the managing side. But at the same time, I don't deny that there may be people who just move on with their life. In other words, I think it's an and situation, not an Or. But it's interesting how I seem to be one of the few people in the field that that can stand in both camps. Other people really like to be on one side of that or the other. And but for me, it's something that I think is always there. It's just not part of my everyday life by any means. So just as an example, you know, years after I was in recovery from my eating disorder, I had a fight with my husband and I remember thinking very clearly very early in our marriage, thinking, I'm not going to eat anything, and then I'll become emaciated and then he'll know how mad I am. And almost immediately the wise part of my mind said, if you don't eat anything, he's literally not even going to notice. And if you're angry with your husband, then you need to speak to him about it. And so I got a bowl of cereal, and I decided how I wanted to address the situation with my husband. Right. So in other words, there was to me that was that was part of my eating disorder, the idea of I will use food or not eating food, you know, as a way of expressing my feelings, but I chose not to do it. So it was just in the thought stage. Another example is after something very upsetting happened, I remember waking up in the morning thinking, wow, throwing up sounds like a good idea. It had been years since I thought that was a good idea, so I didn't do it. It just alerted me. I need to make an appointment with the counselor because something's going on under the surface that is sort of starting to bubble up as this eating issue. So it's that kind of thing to me, it's more like an early warning sign. If someone can identify it and know this is what happens to me when I am under stress, then it just alerts you. And it's not a bad thing to say. It's still, you know, there because it never gets to the behavior level. Same thing with body image. Some people want to say, well, if you don't love your body, then you're not in recovery. Well, I don't know a lot of people who stand in front of the mirror and just go, I love my body. That's not right, that's right. But but I care for my body. I take care of it. I don't harm it on purpose. Right? So to me, the fact that I might have a bad body image thought or even body dysmorphia where my body seems to change and sometimes it seems a lot bigger than it really is. That to me is is me managing my eating disorder rather than saying I'm not recovered from my eating disorder. Yeah, right. So how? Well, that brings up another thing. You know, the body image thing is so overwhelming, especially in this stage of life. Do you have any, wisdom on that? Well, I can tell you, I'm living it. Right. And sometimes I go into, let's say, a restaurant bathroom, and I look in the mirror and the lighting is completely different from my bathroom at home. And I think, am I? Have I been gaslighting myself this whole time? Wow. I'm way grayer or way more wrinkly than I think I am. And then I think, you know what? I like my bathroom at home with the lighting that's comforting and soothing, you know? And right. You know, I we we can't always know how we look to other people. And so I try to just remember that thing about, if you can't see it from three feet away, nobody else cares. I sort of an experiment in going gray, naturally, and seeing what that's like. But it's not always easy. It's everything that we think we knew about our bodies is changing. And what's interesting to me from the personal standpoint versus the professional standpoint is as a dietitian, I am well aware that our bodies don't stop changing just because we became as tall as we're ever going to be, right, doesn't mean that we aren't still growing and changing inside. It's just so interesting that we imagine, once we become adult, that this is it, and this is how I'm going to look forever. And so when the wrinkles start coming and things like that and the cellulite and the the different movements of flesh around different body parts that that we think something has gone wrong that we're supposed to maintain whatever that 30s era body was. Why why do we think that? Because our bodies are continuously changing throughout life, but mentally it's a very hard thing to accept, because we had that sort of fixed idea that this is how I'm going to look for the rest of my life, and I need to prevent anything that changes it. And what I find fascinating is that we expect teens to go through puberty like it's no big deal, like a kid might grow three feet. I went from completely flat chested to my full adult cup size in one summer. Right? And nobody says, wow, that must be really hard for you. And yet, in menopause, we are going through the same thing. Our body is changing again. And finally we realize, oh my goodness, this is harder than I was expecting, right? I think we need to give those teens more sympathy because they're going through it too. But we think, oh, it's just a normal process, so we don't try to stop it. Usually for us this is like a totally normal process, but yet we're trying to fight it. And I just remember that commercial. I think we're around the same age. It was I'm not going to age gracefully. I'm going to fight it every step of the way. I don't remember what it was for, but yeah, that's what I was raised on, was fighting it every step of the way. And it's it's not possible. There has to be some level of acceptance, I think. Yeah. And I will say that when we use the word acceptance, I think people hear, oh, so I just have to like it like this. And I want to clarify that. I don't mean that. I don't mean you have to accept it and say like, yeah, I'm glad this is happening. Accepting to me, I used the example of a couch all the time. Do you love your couch? You might not love it. Like, is it your dream couch? Do you caress it all the time and say I love you? Probably not, but it's where you sit to watch TV. And if you rip it up and, you know, smash it with a sledgehammer, you have nowhere to watch TV. So I think of your body as a couch. Do you have to love it? No. Do you have to accept it? Only in the sense that this is the body you live in. And if you mess it up, you don't have anywhere else to live. So you don't have to love it to accept it. But the word acceptance, you can just change it to this is my body and I care for it because of that, rather than thinking, I accept it because accepting sounds like you let yourself go. It just has such a negative connotation sometimes. I never thought of it like that. I never thought that accepting had a negative connotation. Okay, I see what you mean. Yeah, I mean it. You're absolutely right that I. I love where you're coming from about that. Your body is just changing throughout your entire life, but yet there is something in your mind that thinks, oh, it's going to stay the way it was in my 30s, which is just ridiculous. And, you know, I don't know why we think that. So yeah, it's just changing again. And I guess that has to be okay. I mean. Yes, and, you know, I am grateful that I have a friend I've known since second grade. And she is sort of my role model for aging. She has this beautiful long hair and it's done gray. And she has has crow's feet and I she's just as beautiful as she always was. And I sometimes think of her when I think, oh, these crow's feet make me ugly. Or, you know, I should dye my hair or something. You know, I just think, well, she she's beautiful. Like, you have to get out of your own head sometimes and compare in a positive way, let's say, because otherwise you're you're trying to stop time and we're doomed. It's never going to happen. And you know that's such a good point. It's like you talk to yourself differently than. Oh my God would your. Friends you ever say to your friends right. Like oh look at your cellulite I like never. Oh like you barely even notice. There is an we I was talking to some friends because, you know, the summer is just ending and we have a pool. And I've had lots of pool parties. And years ago, like when we first got our pool, there was a lot of discussion around, oh, I hate wearing my bathing suit. And I'm like, you guys are same. I have cellulite like my mother had cellulite. My daughters are probably going to have it. I'm sorry. Like, this is we have to stop this because what are we going to do? Are we going to deny ourselves the fun in the pool with the drinks and the music? And are we just not going to do that because we don't want to put on a bathing suit? That's bullshit. You know, I'm not doing that. I agree, and I'm all for comfort. I mean, I like to wear a bathing suit with a skirt because I like that it covers a certain part. But I also love to go to the beach and people watch. And I love it. Not in in any kind of lewd way at all, but I just love to see the different swimsuits and the different what, you know, body shapes and, and what looks to me like different comfort levels. And I, I really aspire to be so comfortable now, it's kind of ironic that I'm looking at people and knowing that people will be looking at me, but not hopefully in a judgmental way. Although if they are judging me, that's their business, right? I still this is the body I have and I. I refuse to force this body to not have fun experiences because of my imagined ideas of what is deficient about it. And that's what's really important, is that think about this, okay, this is kind of mind blowing, but for most of human history, we did not know what we looked like. Each of us individually. Right. Like you maybe caught a glimpse of yourself in a puddle, I don't know, but other than that, there were no mirrors. There were no cameras, there was no photos. There was no way to know what you actually looked like. It just wasn't important to us. And so now that we have that ability, our brains kind of don't know what to do with that information, right? Oh my gosh, Jessica, I never thought of that. Oh my God, I wish that was kind of the case. Still, how much mind space would that free up? Right. But yes. I mean, even right now we're recording this podcast and there is a picture of me on the screen and I have a piece of paper covering it, because that would be so distracting to me to be looking at, like essentially looking in a mirror while I'm talking to you. You have that covered up. Uhhuh. So I can't see myself. I only see you. Oh my God, I never even thought of doing that. That's interesting. That frees my mind, my brain space from monitoring my appearance and focusing on talking to you. I love that that's so smart. I might start doing that. But yeah, you brought up. That's the other part of what I was going to say is that we sort of, talked about like a no judgment zone. And also nobody's really even thinking about the other person, you know, they're thinking about themselves. But I started doing this thing, like, if I actually have a thought about somebody or the way they look, I have to stop myself and think a loving, beautiful thought about them. Like, what is beautiful about them? Because I feel like you're right. We do kind of judge other people. And then so we feel judged. And so one way to stop that is to stop the judgment of other people and to think something beautiful about them. And it's been a real muscle memory practice kind of thing. It's it's taken me a few years, but I think I'm really getting that phenomenal. And I actually do something very similar without sort of being as mindful and specific about it. But I'm thinking of, a couple weeks ago I went to physical therapy and oh, that's another thing that'll make you feel old. Miss the bottom step and break your ankle in two places and be in a wheelchair and yeah, oh, gosh, you'll feel your feel your age. I'm I, I was that physical therapy for the first time. And this younger girl walks in and she's like to get it, and she's loud. And I'm thinking, this girl has no idea how disruptive she is, how loud she is, you know? And then I sort of, you know, kept that thought to myself and a few minutes later was able to replace it with, she is so enthusiastic. She just brings cheer wherever she goes. That's right. So I, I because it's that same thing. I don't want to be that judgy woman judging other women. And I think we're kind of raised to be catty like that by society. And it doesn't serve any of us. No. So it's it's a good practice. Let me tell you something else. Just as an FYI, when you're thinking those judgy thoughts about other people, okay, it's kind of a secret, but when you look at someone and you really sort of like, loads something about them, I bet you 99.9% of the time is because of something you don't like about yourself 100%. 100%. And that chatty girl who was so loud I thought of myself as the younger person. And you know, I felt like I before I was diagnosed with ADHD, the theme of my life was like, Jessica, it's not your turn. You know? And so here I am, feeling judged for being cheerful and perky and expressive. And so I'm doing the exact same thing to this young woman. And I just refuse to be part of that system. That's who she is. Let her be. Exactly. Oh my God, no, you're 100% right that. Yes, when you are judging something about somebody else, it's because of something you feel about yourself. Yeah, totally. Okay, well, tell me how your, eating disorder reared its ugly head in perimenopause, and. Oh, goodness. Why do you think this is happening? Yeah. So I started waking up in the middle of the night and going for a snack. I mean, it was an OB, as obvious of a sign to me, as almost as obvious as the hot flashes were and the hair loss I was waking up at, you know, two, 3 or 4 in the morning and I would go for a snack and I, I was not choosing like a turkey sandwich. I was going for like 2 or 3. Little Debbie's. And I've realized that, hey, that's probably not something to bring into my house, because before this time period, I wouldn't. I like Little Debbie's, but I mean, I don't know, I think of them sort of as kid food and I just, you know, didn't need them in the house. And then once I started buying them and I was going through a box, like in two days or three days and I realized, and something's going on, probably with my hormones, and I'm either getting low blood sugar in the night or, you know, something's going on, and I get that, but I this is not a good solution. Let's say. So I started trying to be really conscious when I woke up in the night. Am I hungry? If I'm hungry, go get something to eat. But if I'm not hungry, just go to the bathroom and go back to bed. And so I've tried to be more conscious, which is a funny thing to say when you wake up in the middle of the night because you're literally like unconscious when you wake and then you wake up. But I've tried to be more, more thoughtful about it. And then today, this is so nuts that we're talking about this today, because this morning I had a, zoom with a group of very experienced dietitians that I consult with once a month eating disordered items and something one of them said. It was very tangential to this, but it brought this very important image into my mind, which is that when I was in kindergarten, my mom was always late to pick me up. My mom, to this day, I believe she has untreated A.D.D. she has no sense of time. She'll say, I'll be there at ten and she'll show up at 1130. She it's just how she is. And as an adult, I've learned to deal with it. As a child, I had no idea. And so to be picked up late every single day for kindergarten. And P.S. this was in the 70s, where the teachers would literally say, like, are you sure your mom's coming? And I kind of didn't know, but I just assumed they were, and then they would leave. So I was alone. Oh, she'll be fine. Yeah. Now, granted, there were other people somewhere in the building, but I was in the entire, like, preschool wing alone. And I now know, looking back, that a way of comforting myself was I would climb up on that countertop in the little kitchenette of each room and look in the cupboards for a snack, and I would usually find something like animal crackers or goldfish or something like that. And I would snack on those until my mom came. One time I was discovered by the principal, who I guess was in his had been in his office somewhere, and he was so kind. And he was like, oh, you're hungry for a snack, let me help you. Which was really nice, because I feel like that could have been like a huge shaming situation. Right. But that was, that was that that was a memory I had a long time ago. Well, just today I wrote down during that meeting I was having something from the cupboard. Exclamation point. Oh my gosh, I'm lonely. I feel left out. I'm not sure what's happening. And I'm going to the cupboard, to sneak some food. And of course, it's a kid food. Oh, wow. And I haven't quite pieced it all together how it fit, but it felt like this epiphany of, wow, you are not going to the cupboard for Little Debbie's, because if you were and I would say this same thing to a patient, if you were, then you'd eat a Little Debbie and you go, that was delicious. Bye. But if you're having to go back for a second one and a third one, and even after that, you don't really feel satisfied, you are trying to satisfy something non-food with food. You're trying to satisfy an emotion with food. And so I really want to think about what is that emotion that I am feeling that is somehow relating to being a kid and being left behind, or being forgotten about, or being unimportant or being. Yes, there might be some hunger attached to it, but there's more than hunger for sure. There's more than hunger. And so the past few nights when I've woken up and I have determined either I'm not hungry, go back to bed, or I am hungry when I'm hungry, I've gone to the kitchen and it's so weird, but I've gone to the refrigerator and I got a yogurt, or I got an apple and cheese, and for some reason that feels more conscious to me, like I am actually making a choice. Not I am hypnotized. Going to the cupboard, it's. And there's not even Little Debbie's in the cupboard, but last night I think my husband bought Ding Dongs and I, which I don't even really like, and I literally in the middle of the night picked up a ding dong, looked at it and was like, that's not what I want. And I went and got a yogurt from the refrigerator. So this is a long story to say that these are lifelong processes. And this is my this is what I do now is I don't see patients anymore. I teach Healing Your Inner Eater, which is all about our childhood experiences. And it's so tempting to say that happened so long ago. It can't be affecting me anymore. But the things that happened so long ago happened to us when we were so young. We didn't have the resources. We didn't have the the emotional ability. We didn't speak about them. We didn't know how to process them. So more of our life has gone on the path based on a narrative that we have told ourselves as a little kid. It's just amazing that it actually happened to me today when I'm about to talk to you. Yeah. Oh my God, that story is crazy. That's crazy that you wrote in the cupboard. And so, do you think that this shows up in perimenopause? Because. Why? Why do you think it shows up, do you think? Oh, well, I've come up with two theories. With two days. One is the hormones, right, that something changes in our hormones? We all know that. And so there's less of a I don't know what to call it, like a hormonal balance. And when you're out of balance, you're looking for something. And for some people that's going to be alcohol. And for some people that's going to be food. It's kind of like whatever is your substance of choice. For some people, it might be be running like, you know, people start training for a marathon during menopause. It's like you're you're looking for something to help you feel better. And so depending on what kind of substance or behavior you've used in the past that can flare back up. The other thing is, do you know about the We Do Not Care club? Yes, I think that's a big part of it do is that we are. Tell people if they don't know. Oh, we do not care. Melinda. Melanie. Melanie Melanie is a woman. I see her on Facebook. I think she's also on Instagram and Instagram. And she. Usually wears like three pairs of. Repairs, a reading glasses and she reads from a notebook. These are the things that we do not care about today. And so she says, this is for all the perimenopausal and menopausal women that are part of the We Do Not Care club. And it's things like we do not care that we are watering the grass in our nightgown, stop looking at us or we do not care about the silent treatment. Peace and quiet is our love language. It's like all these really funny thing. Where is she? Yes, it's hilarious. And it's. I got my We Do Not Care Club T-shirt in the mail the other day and proudly wore it. It's that. It's that we, I mean, I don't know how to say it without using the F-word. Like we. Should effort. Oh, I can't, okay? We just have no more fucks to give. Like we are done. And I think that that's part of it is just. We're in our 50s. We've been through a lot. We're we still got a lot to go, but we've just really like imposter syndrome is behind us. We are tired of, you know, for lack of a better word, mediocre white males telling us what to do. Like we just are sort of owning our our power in different ways. And I think that some of that is where our old, let's say, coping skills maybe are no longer serving us. And so certain things can, can kind of flare up. Oh man, you think it's flaring up because we don't care anymore. We're like, oh, you know, fuck this or whatever. I mean, we, well, why are these it. Yeah. But to me it's more the, I'm willing to not care as much about what other people think, which is interesting because I'm saying this is happening in a body that is also very much told. It has to look a certain way. Right. But the idea that I need to take time for myself, I need to think about what I want to eat. I need to think about what is going on for me. My emotions are important. I think that's what more what I'm thinking of. Not necessarily like like related to other people, but more like I need to take time for myself. I need to think about what's important to me. I think that that's right. And then I also think, like, because our bodies are changing, that. I think that some of the eating disorders flare up because of that, because you're like, you are fighting against it. And trying to still look, you know, the way you did in your 30s or 40s. Yes. And that that is where I think people are tempted to go to an extreme when you're trying to control. Yes. And so I guess that maybe the, the part that I, I feel like the we do not care club is, is sort of trying to help us out of that. I'll say this that it's time to say like this is how my body looks society, you just need to buy off. Right? I agree, it's so funny. You have to find it on social media. It she's hilarious. It is good. And then and we do need more of that. Like this is it the I won't say acceptance because, you're training that out of me, but yes. Just finding yourself where you are. You know, I also found, like, my mother, like I said, my mother, I think she had an eating disorder her whole life, or at least is an adult. But it really flared up. She died about a year ago, but when she was in assisted living, she kind of stopped eating. She. I guess it was like a control thing. And also. Yeah. And also she she's like, I just want to be thin, I don't care. And and it was like a child like, you know, mom, just one bite. Like just have one. It was awful. Have you found that also with the parents? Well, I think that as our parents age again, sort of the things that they may have been doing on their own without us knowing become more obvious to us. Right. And I think I'm just thinking of, someone I know who is in her 90s and had to have jaw surgery and was supposed to be drinking booze and weighed herself and thought that she gained 2 pounds and then wouldn't drink her booze anymore. Right. So it's that kind of thing. And then this person had a stroke and now they're eating pasta and things that they I've never seen them eat their whole life and ice cream. And so it's very brain based. I mean, it's very stress related. There's, there's so much that we don't know about eating behavior. We tend to think that nutrition is such a fixed, finalized science, but it's really not. There's so much that we don't understand about eating behavior. What would be your advice for somebody who feels like they're struggling with an eating, issue right now, or body like if they needed help, what do you suggest? So the first thing is, let's just right now just clear the shame like it's nothing you did wrong. You were just describing earlier, Lauren, that you did all the things, the dieting and that kind of stuff that could have led to an eating disorder. You just didn't have the genes for it. Right? So any if we all do the same stuff and not everyone develops an eating disorder. So if you have it's just bad luck of the draw with your genes is nothing you did wrong. It's all the things you were told by society to do. So let's get the shame out of it. First of all, so that you don't fail. I mean, you might still feel embarrassed, but it's. That's a feeling. That's not a fact. Nothing you did was wrong. You may do things that you regret, but it's it's not a moral issue. So it's just like a broken leg. It's something that you would benefit from getting someone else to look at. Putting someone else's eyes on it. And so that often is either a therapist or an eating disorder specialized dietitian. And you can just look up eating disorder dietitian and your city and find someone. And that's probably the first person that a lot of people talk to about what's going on with their eating. It feels a little more comfortable to talk to a dietitian about your food than it does maybe to talk to a therapist, because that sounds like I'm really screwed up, right? But if you have a counselor already that you're talking about other things, maybe dip your toe in and they would it be okay if I talk to you about my eating? You can also ask a friend, right? I mean, someone that you're really close with, and they. I feel like I might need help, but reaching out to someone just feels so overwhelming. Would you help me find someone? But the main thing is to take the step of getting some outside help. If you feel like. Oh, yeah, as in, say, if you feel like you can't step there, then there are books. I think Life Without Ed is a really good book for someone who's sort of starting to open their mind to the fact that maybe something is going on with their eating that is a amiss. Life without Ed. Ed. Yes. Yes. Okay. I'll put that in the show notes. What speed. How do you know? I mean, I guess you probably have a real sense that, okay, this is a problem. Are there are there signs that this is a problem? Is it like it's disrupting your life? Right. That's the key is that if you feel regretful or guilty after eating, if you feel like a large portion of your mind is thinking about what you're going to eat before, let's say a social function, I don't know if I can go to that party because I don't know what food is going to be there, that kind of thing. If it's impairing any part of your life, if, if you have to go by special foods to the point that you are neglecting your other responsibilities like work or childcare, because you right, you have to go to ten farmers markets or something like that. It doesn't have to be that severe though. If you don't feel comfortable with your eating. And then the other clue is, and this is really important if you eat differently around people versus when you're alone, that would be my biggest clue, is that something is amiss. So, you know, it could be that when you're alone, you don't eat. That would might be a sign that you're depressed. So it's not necessarily an eating disorder, but if you eat differently with other people versus when you're alone, that's a clue. And again, that was my clue with the little Debbie's, I would not sit at the dining room table with my husband and eat three Little Debbie's in the broad daylight, right? It was like a sneaky thing I would do in the night. Not that I wouldn't tell him. I mean, it's not like I was embarrassed of it, but something was amiss because it wasn't something that I was doing sort of, you know, in general with people, when I was alone and sneaky that something is wrong with that. Not necessarily the food, even, but the fact that I'm doing something that I, that I feel ashamed of, that's what's most important, is if you're doing something that makes you feel bad, that's enough of a reason. Yeah, I think that that's probably a big one, especially, like you said, if you're eating differently around people than you would normally, that okay. I think that's good. Do you what's your favorite concert you've ever been to? Oh my gosh, I just went last week to La freak. It's, a disco disco cover band was so much fun. So much fun. I highly recommend, if they're in your area. Were you dancing. 100%? Of course. That sounds so much fun. Do you have a favorite person that you admire for the way they're aging? Oh, that's interesting. I was looking at a video of Maya Angelou. I know that she's not living anymore, but I. I would say she's a quite a role model for that, that she was reading her Phenomenal Woman poem, and I just thought she really embodies what it means to be a wise woman and own your power. She she was amazing. I, I love that you brought her up because, she she said two things, that that always stick with me. And I think that, Oprah kind of brought it to light that she said these two things. One is when you know better, you can do better, and the other is when somebody shows you who they are, believe them. And I hear her voice in my head like she was a like a beautiful, wise woman. That's a good one. Do you have, something that you learned from your parents? While I know you said your dad died young, but from your mom, either negatively or positively about aging. My mom is 83, and she's about to go solo on a, bus trip to Big Bend. Just because she wants to. I mean, that's what I've learned about aging, is that it's just a number, and she's I we should all be so lucky to age as well as she does. Oh, man. That's awesome. She's going to Big Bend. Yeah. That's such a, so random. I know, I. Know, it's so random. Last year she went to, We're in Texas. Last year, she went to Mount Rushmore with my uncle, whose wife did not want to go, and he wanted to go. So my it was like brother and sister went on this trip to Mount Rushmore, and she, she they went on this bus trip with this company for older people. And she fell in love with it. And she was like, where should I go by myself? This year? And I know she really wants me to go. And a busload of old people sounds so not fun. And then I think, who do you think you are, Jessica? You're 52. Okay? You're 52, but you're not 82. No, no. Oh, man. Oh, that sounds. But it reminds me of when my mom went to the, You know, what? Would you assisted living? I don't know what's quite the right word because it wasn't really assisted, but, an older care independent living. Yeah. Independent living. And she said, I don't want to live there. There's so many old people there. Yeah, she said that like 78, you know. So yeah. That's funny. Oh, I love it. Well, that sounds good. Sounds like she's a good role model. Yes. Even though she can't be on time. No. You have to change your expectations. That's all. Exactly, exactly. Well thank you, Jessica, I think that this has been a really good conversation. I know the time went by so fast. You went fast. If talking about healing your inner eater has sort of sparked curiosity in anyone listening, I do have a workbook called Healing Your Inner Eater, and you can go to Healing Your Inner eater.com and find out where I'm giving workshops or where. Or you can order the workbook and I'll put a coupon code. So if you use the Discount Code podcast, that'll bring the cost of that workshop of the workbook down. Okay. I'll put that in the show notes. Healing for inner eater in. Your Inner eater.com. Yes. And then podcast is the promo code. Yep okay. Thank you Jessica. Sure. Take care. Bye bye. Thanks for listening, friend. From my heart to yours. Be well. Until we meet again.