Brenda Davis RD - Blood Sugar, Brain Fog & Aging: What’s Missing from Your Diet?

Brenda Davis, Registered Dietician, is here to explain why we actually do need more protein as we age. Previously, it was believed that if you’re getting enough calories, you’re getting enough protein. She also schools us on type 2 diabetes and how we can reverse it, citing her latest study in the Marshall Islands. We find out what essential supplements we should all be taking and why. We discuss how a purposeful, meaningful life is key to living with vitality and why kindness really does matter when it comes to aging well.

https://brendadavisrd.com/

https://brendadavisrd.com/books-2/

If you want to get in touch with the show, email us at lauren@agelikeabadassmother.com; we'd love to hear from you! 

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Transcript

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Hello, friends. Welcome. This week I'm talking to Brenda Davis, registered dietitian, and she talks about how to truly control type two diabetes. And these are lessons that she gleaned from her randomized, controlled study in the Marshall Islands, a population that's plagued by out of control blood sugar. She also talks about what supplements we absolutely need for all of us, and new evidence about how much protein we need as we age. And you might be surprised. And you should be taking note about aging well from Brenda, because at 66 years old, she can still do everything that she did at 30 years old, including handstands and the splits. She's incredible. Well, thank you for listening. And if you'd like to help the podcast continue to grow, please rate and reviews on Apple and Spotify. I truly appreciate it. And don't forget, you can now watch the podcast on YouTube and Spotify. And feel free to leave comments. I love hearing from you. Thanks for listening. Hi friends, I'm Lauren Bernick and I'm flipping the script about growing older. My guests have been influencers since before that was even a thing. Welcome to the anti Anti-Aging podcast. Welcome to age like a badass mother. Brenda Davis, a registered dietitian, is a leading plant based pioneer and an internationally acclaimed speaker. She is a widely regarded as a rockstar of plant based nutrition, and was referred to as the godmother of vegan dietitians by Vegnews. She has been a featured speaker at medical nutrition and dietetics conferences in 27 countries on six continents. As a prolific nutrition writer, Brenda has authored or coauthored 13 books with nearly a million copies in print in 12 languages. Her most recent works include Plant Powered Protein from 2023 nourish, the definitive plant based Nutrition guide for families in 2020, Kick Diabetes Essential 2019, and The Kick Diabetes Cookbook in 2018. She has also authored and coauthored numerous peer reviewed journal articles. Brenda was the lead dietitian in a diabetes randomized controlled trial in the Marshall Islands. The results paper was just released in September, which we'll be discussing and in 2022. Brenda was the seventh recipient of the planned Trisha and Projects Luminary Award. She lives in Calgary, Alberta, Canada. Please welcome Brenda Davis. Well, thank you so much, Lauren. It's really lovely to be here. I'm excited to be part of this amazing podcast. Oh. Thank you. Well, I mean, I say this all the time, but I think you really are a badass mother. You can. Can you tell us how old you are? Is that okay? Oh, of course, I will be 66 next month, so. Oh, wow. I mean, you're, you know, it's funny because, in in one of our emails, I asked if I could ask your age, and I said, I think you're really aging well. And you said, I am. And I'm like, I that's I really admire that because sometimes we're like, oh, you know, well thank you. I'm like you. Do you tell us, Brenda, you you get it? So so share, spilling like, what's your secrets? Give us some secrets of aging. Well, right off the bat. Yeah. You know, for me, I. I think some of the, you know, the most important aspects are to live a purpose driven life. Be kind, be positive. That's really important. And then make healthy lifestyle choices. So, you know, eat a healthy diet, make physical activity a part of your daily routine, do everything you need to manage stress and be mindful and avoid addictions. And and I think one of the most important things is just to stay socially connected. So those are all things that I think are really important to aging well. And is your what I, I guess your purpose is what to let people know about living a healthy lifestyle. My purpose is really about making the world a more compassionate place. I want I want people to be healthier, but I want them to be making a conscious choices, that will leave the world better. Kinder, healthier. And and so everything I do in terms of my career has been to help people. Those that want to do this, that they want to choose a whole food type, plant based diet, to ensure that they, in their families can do it very well, and, and, and and be joyful and, and love their food and, you know, all of those things in the process. You know, that's close to do, you know, Victoria moran. Oh, yes. Of course, Victoria is a legend. Yes. I mean, do you personally know her? I'm sure. Yeah. Well, she, it reminds me of of, you know, pretty much what she said. The the compassion and and making the world a more compassionate place. And, I guess that's, ahimsa, right? Just absolutely can, And, you know, the funny thing, Lauren, is, is I think that a lot of us, who aspire to making the world a more compassionate place, were just born wanting to make an a more compassionate place. I can remember when I was a little, like, three, 4 or 5 years old. If I would see a snake on the ground, I'd pick them up. I'd talk to them. I'd ask them how I was going, oh my God, that's me. Yeah, exactly. That's you. That's that's Victoria two. I'm sure you know, that's how we roll. And my. Yeah, exact same way. Like he. Oh my God. You know, I can remember when he was two years old, a friend of his stepped on a spider on purpose. And you would have thought somebody cut off his right arm. He was just distraught. He screaming, just like, couldn't believe someone wouldn't do that. And so I think there are many of us that are just born with a compassionate soul, and you just get it from an early age. Yeah, it's true, but, you know, I didn't come to, V and ISM until about ten years ago, but I was a vegetarian. Most of my life began, well, since I was a teenager, mostly on and off, but mostly. And I think that I did kind of make that connection. And, I was just saying this the other day, I feel like until you really stop eating animals, you, you know, when you're still eating them, you kind of have to put your blinders on because you can't really think about it, right? Otherwise you're you're an immoral person and you can't really live with that very easily. And most of us, you know, as we're grown up, we just get desensitized to the plight of these, you know, food animals. And because it's such a it's tradition, it's culture. But of course, tradition and culture don't justify anything. They didn't justify slavery and they don't justify the, you know, horrible abuse, of, of food animals. So, I mean, you know, and it's hard to recognize and accept that, like you say, when we're actually consuming them. Yeah. So yeah. No, I couldn't agree more. And, you know, obviously not to shame anybody if they're listening to this and they eat animals because, you know, that's that's not the point. We don't want to shame anybody. It's just. No, no, you were there. We, there 100%. Absolutely. And, so, you know, just like, like your good friend Juliana ever was saying, just eat more plants. That's the first place to start. Eat more plants. And every little tiny baby step you take, too, towards making more, you know, kind and conscious, you know, choices. Is is a choice worth celebrating it? It's not. You don't have to. It's not all or nothing. You do what you can do that works in your life. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So speaking of Juliana, she was on a few weeks ago, and she started talking about how there's new evidence that we need more protein as we, especially as we age. And it just kind of goes in the face of everything that we've been saying for a long time. Like, if you're getting enough calories, you're getting enough protein. And, I know she was a little bit hesitant to put it out there because she's just now really getting into this and and finding the research. But I think you've been researching it more, haven't you? Yes. Well, the last book I coauthored was a book called Plant Powered Protein, and I did this with my usual coauthor for Santa milena. My son, Corey Davis, who has expertise in the environmental side of things. And, and, yes, the evidence is overwhelming. It's it's so strong now that as we get older, we need more protein, that most health authorities in the world recommend higher levels of protein for older adults. And the usual, you know, we usually see around 1 to 1 point 3g/kg body weight. Of course, the RDA for adults is 0.8. And so most people now agree that that's not enough for for older adults. And the reason is really simple. We just don't. We're less able to digest and absorb protein from our food as we get older, but we're also at higher risk for muscle wasting. And, you know, all of those things where a little bit of extra protein might help to preserve, muscle mass and help you to avoid sarcopenia and frailty and so forth. I actually have had a number of, of, clients or patients who, have come to me saying, you know, I, I, I'm not sure why, but I'm losing my hair. My skin is really thin. I mean, I bruise easily, I, you know, my I just don't feel as strong as I used to. And every doctor I've asked about protein says, oh, you need a whole food plant based diet. You're getting plenty of protein. It's not protein. Don't worry about it. And and in most cases I say, okay, tell me what you eat. You know what a typical intake. Well, of course, as we get older, we tend to eat fewer calories. And so what I'm seeing is I'm seeing these individuals eating a wonderful diet. You know, they're having their steel cut oats and their, you know, their salads and their, their grains and legumes and vegetables and fruits and all of those healthy foods, some nuts and seeds on top. And it adds up with their limited caloric intake to about 35 to 45g of protein a day. Well, for most of them, they need more like 60g a day, especially if we're going for 1.2g/kg body weight. And so they're falling short. And as soon as we correct that and it's so easy to correct, their symptoms all start to reverse. And I've seen this over and over again. So, so, you know, we think that that, you know, we, we think that there is no such thing as protein deficiency in the, in the. Yeah, world. That's what we've been told. We've told yeah, we've been told enough calories. You get enough protein. Right. And that's almost always true. But it's not necessarily true for people who are older, especially women who are older, who are eating a limited number of calories. And so they get, you know, the skin fragility and the hair loss and the brittle nails and the muscle weakness and the fatigue and the hair loss and the mood changes and the inability to fight infections and poor wound healing. And doctors don't recognize it as insufficient protein. They're not suffering from Erasmus or kwashiorkor, you know, these severe protein resistances, but they're not getting enough protein to build and rebuild their body tissues, and they tend to need a little more leucine. And they need, you know, it just their needs change as they get older. And so so, you know, when I look at a diet and I see someone having a bowl of, you know, still kind of oats with some blueberries and a few maybe walnuts on top, and they're having a little bit of almond milk with that. I'll get them to cook the still carrots in soy milk instead, and have it with soy milk and boost the, you know, and then add a tablespoon or two of hemp seeds and boost the protein by probably 15g at least at breakfast, just by doing a couple of really simple things, not changing the meal, but making a few simple swaps at lunch. If they're having their big salad at lunch, I'll get them to, you know, a half a cup of tofu cubes, a few, pumpkin seed. And that can boost their protein by 15 to 20g at that meal. And, you know, so little swaps and little additions can make a really big difference. And so, you know, I, you know, most of these women that are 35 to 45g a day, I get them to 60 to 70, very, very easily. They don't need to add animal protein. They just need to focus a little more on more concentrated sources of plant protein, like legumes, eggs and tofu and tempeh. In these kinds of foods and seeds like hemp seeds and pumpkin seeds and a little less perhaps, on the bread and grains. And, you know, putting, you know, replacing some of those calories with the more protein dense calories. And, and that seems to work really well for most of these individual oils. Okay. So let's define older. How do we know when we get to the point where we need more protein. Is it something that we see hair loss or like I've my skin is getting thin. But I thought that was genetic. Yeah. This could be paper. Yeah but but but so, so most of the recommendations for example in Australia their recommendations are for people 70 plus and they recommend 25% more protein. Once you hit 7,025% more. So and there are a number of countries, probably at least ten countries in Europe that recommend in the range of 1.0 to 1 point 5g/kg body weight. And and though those recommendations pertain to people 65 plus. So the recommendations will be slightly different in different countries. But generally, you know, I would say somewhere in the range of 60 plus says what they talking about. Yeah. So is it going to hurt you if you're like 50 to start adding in more protein. Okay. And especially if you're a physically active individual, you may need a little bit of that extra protein anyway. So to help, you know, build and maintain, your muscle mass and, and I have to say, you know, I don't want to be braggy or anything, but honestly, my muscle mass, I don't think is any different than when I was 30. Muscle definition is as good I'm as strong. I can still press as much weight. And, you know, I can still do most of the things that I could do when I was 30, like headstands and handstands in the splits and, you know, those kinds of things I that's awesome. Do and, and, and I think I'll still be able to do that when I'm 80 because I just that's great doing them. But I also continue my, my exercise regime is, is, you know, pretty strong like I do what it is. Well, you know, I do something every day. This morning I did a step class and then a yoga class. You did two classes? I did two, maybe three times a week. I do yoga, so I'll do my aerobic or strength training every day. And, my favorite is classes. Sometimes I go for a run or a ski or like a cross-country ski or a canoe or something like that. Because I do love doing some activity outdoors, but but I do, I like I love kickboxing, I love how steppe, I love, all of the hit classes and the body power or group power classes. I love all of it. It's all, oh my gosh. And and I love you because I do at least one class every day and sometimes two. So I'm physically active, you know? You sure are. Yeah. You're not joking. Okay, I got to step it up a little this morning. I did, I did my Gina Burton, fashion flow. And then I rode my spin bike for 30 minutes, and then that's all I did. But I did, but that's awesome. Well, and yesterday I did, you know, yoga, like yoga. And I walked, but, Okay, I got to step it up. I've never done a hit class. I'm so, like, intimidated by that, but I think I think I could do it. If you go and do it, you do not have to be intimidated, because one of the things about the classes is, is people of every age and every fitness level. We have a man that comes to our classes and that's high intensity training. So people say, yeah, he's probably 83 or 84 and he just does his level. And so everybody does their level and and you never have to feel like eyes are on you. People are focusing on what they're doing. And and it it's just fun. And we all you know we all get we all love that. We have some older adults in the class who are just doing their best to do it. Yeah yeah yeah. That's true. Yeah. Okay. I, I will try and do that. Let's move on to your paper that we just talked about, the type two diabetes paper. For the Marshall Islands. Can you talk about that a little bit? Oh, absolutely. So, this this was quite a project. So people that aren't aware of this project, I was invited to, to be a part of this research team and really to develop the nutrition protocol for this, this, lifestyle intervention and the Marshall Islands for people that are familiar or never heard of the Marshall Islands, they are an extremely remote, set of islands, somewhere between Hawaii and Australia. There's nothing within 2000 miles in any direction. So they were actually used as atomic bomb testing grounds after the Second World War because there's so remote. Yes. And so yeah. So people might be familiar with that. They, you know, 100 years ago they the people lived off the land. They just ate fish and plants, whatever they could get growing on these atolls. And, and so it was a lot of coconut and breadfruit, pandanus. And these kinds of foods. And, and there was no diabetes. I mean, you can imagine they had to work really hard to get their food and there was nothing processed. They didn't have there was no processed foods. And, and so today, you know, these islands could sustain maybe, you know, the biggest island, maybe 500 or 1000 people. Was there 30,000 people on Majuro now? And so, they have to import foods and the people are poor. So guess what they import. They import, you know, UPF, ultra processed foods that are, things like white sticky rice and ramen noodles and spam and a lot of sweet drinks. Their biggest drink there is luau, when the first ingredient is high fructose corn sirup. The kid's favorite snack is ramen noodles. And to flavor them up and they just eat them dry out of the package, they pour. They sprinkle some Kool-Aid powder on top to give them, oh, flavor. So I know it's it's just, you know, they eat a lot of cake donuts and white soda biscuits and it's it's just a lot of a lot of meat, a lot of white rice. And their fiber intake is probably 5 to 10g a day if they're lucky, you know. So it's just, really, you couldn't design a diet to induce diabetes? Better than the diet they've adopted. And and so the diabetes rates are among the highest in the world. And, on, you know, and Polynesians tend to be very metabolically efficient. They're designed to survive famine. So they get overweight and they get metabolic diseases more quickly than the average Caucasian. And and so, you know, it's just people have just been ravaged, ravaged by, type two diabetes. And the number one surgery on the island is amputations. Oh. Oh, no. That's so sad. That's terrible. It's just so sad. So we went in and we did, a randomized controlled trial where we randomized people to usual care for diabetes or this very, I would say, intensive lifestyle intervention, where they were fed a whole food plant based diet. They were, you know, lots of exercise. And we touched on all of the pillars of lifestyle medicine in the education portion of the program. People were with us for the first 2 to 4 weeks, five days a week for close to eight hours a day. I mean, it was really, really intense. And, and, and, you know, as the program went on. So we followed them for six months, but we the program lasted three months. Really. And and, well, they were doing the program, that there the results were just amazing. So we saw average drops in, in blood glucose of, you know, over 70mg per deciliter in the first couple of weeks, A1 C's dropped about two points on average, by 12 weeks. Which is just phenomenal. Result. And, you know, of course, everything else there, insulin resistance started to reverse. We saw reverse isolate. And I think it was about 23% or something of of the people that had an 81C over eight. So complete remission. So it was it was incredible. Yeah. It was, it was really nice results. And of course this is a population that relies very heavily on fish. If as that they did now a little less so because they're eating a lot of, you know, chicken and spam and so forth. So we did our plant based diet for, for the intensive portion of the program. But, foods that they were permitted to eat at home were plants and fish. So but we had a limitation on the fish that it had to be prepared without added, you know, it couldn't be fried or. No. Yeah. It just needed to be prepared in the, in the healthiest way, possible. another reminder because I think, I, I think anybody who listens to this podcast regularly knows that type two diabetes can be very well reversed with a whole food plant based diet. But I think that, you know, people just out in the world who are eating a standard American diet, they're generally their, doctors will tell them like, no, you can't eat fruit. You can't, you know, can't have carbohydrates. And it's just so backwards. It's it's really, it's really disturbing. And, and, you know, we know we we have now, probably 8 or 10, reviews and meta analyzes that have, provided convincing evidence that plant based diets aid in weight loss. They improve insulin sensitivity, they decrease blood glucose levels. They they improve blood lipids. They reduce our needs for medications. They reduce, the risk of complications of diabetes. We know that diabetes can be driven into remission with, healthy, diet and, and lifestyle changes and, and actually, even the most conservative organizations like the American Diabetes Association, the Endocrine Society, the European Association for the Study of Diabetes, diabetes UK, they came together and provided a definition for remission, which is an A1C of less than 6.5, percent, at least three months after the cessation of glucose lowering medication. And so this is not something that's debated in scientific circles anymore. It's very well accepted. We know that diabetes can be driven into remission. The big question is what diet is the best for achieving remission. And and so, you know, and to me, you know, any diet that provides a color deficit can produce weight loss. And weight loss is critical to driving diabetes into remission because it's driven by, fat accumulation or, you know, it's driven by inflammation, oxidative stress, dysbiosis. But lipo toxicity is probably the biggest player, which means you're storing fat in places it shouldn't be stored. So we have adipose tissue that can store unlimited amounts of, of fat. But when your body gets overwhelmed with with too many calories, it ends up storing fat in your liver and in your pancreas and in your muscles and all of these places. And when you store fat in your liver, your liver become it causes your body to become insulin resistant. When you store it in your pancreas, it destroys your beta cells. Your pancreas has no tolerance for storing fat. And so so when we can get weight reduction, it's unbelievable. There was a study that used a super low calorie liquid diet. It was like 850 calories a day, like 825 to 850. And and people that lost at least 15kg or 33 pounds and 86% of them went into remission. The people that lost, 22 to 33 pounds or 10 to 15 kilos, it was about 57%. And it went down and down and down as people lost less and less weight. And so very good evidence that diabetes and that was the direct trial, you know, and this is a very famous trial, but people say, well, what what diet is really best for weight loss. And, and as I mentioned, you can lose weight eating Twinkies if you eat few enough, you know, few few of them, like 800 calories worth or whatever. But the diet that is really best for weight loss is a diet that minimizes your risk of death and disease and the complications of diabetes. And that's where plant based diets really shine. Because they are anti-inflammatory. They they have a lot of antioxidants. They have a lot of fiber that promote a healthy gut microbiome. They they reduce the chances of lipo toxicity. They support healthy body weight better than other weight loss diets. And so yeah, that to me is really the clincher is you want you don't want to be eating a diet for weight loss that causes you to get cancer or causes you to have complications of diabetes. You want a diet that supports optimal health and well-being. Yes. Okay. Well. And and that helps you age well because you're going to not have those diseases. to me it's not really controversial in mainstream medical and dietetics circles anymore. That plant forward at least diets are the most healthful diets. Aren't you so excited to be able to say something like that that it's not controversial anymore? It's not. And I can tell you, when I started along this path in 1989, it was controversial. Oh, yeah. You know, I, I can remember being really afraid of being a dietitian and being a vegan because I didn't know if there was another vegan dietitian on the planet. It was just unheard of. We were hot in school, you know, and I a 1978, 1979, I can remember being in university and being taught that, you know, vegetarian diets were considered risky and vegan diets were considered downright dangerous. And and they were incorporated in our textbook in a section called FAD Diets. And that's all we learned about plant based diets, is that they were to be avoided. Are plant exclusive diets especially. And so we have come a long way. Yeah, we've come a long way. But you know, what's interesting is that, I think on your website, it has your favorite quotes and they are from famous vegans or vegetarians like Ben Franklin, Albert Einstein, Pythagoras. Like, these are deep thinkers who were ahead of their time, who realized this. And I and I love those quotes. People should go to your your website and check that out. I do too. I just, I, I love it. Okay. So give us what I like also is that you're, you're then going to give us the pitfalls and where we could, you know, mess up and what we have to be aware of. So what do we need to watch out for on this kind of I think, I think one of the greatest services that we can do to our community is to pretend that all you have to do is eat whole foods and all will be well, because what happens when we don't get enough of of certain nutrients or we don't get enough of the nutrition we need, is we become exhibit number one for why people are justified eating meat. And so we need to have all our eyes dotted, our t's crossed. We need to get this right. So when when you see an infant with, B12 deficiency and irreversible brain damage, it it is, it hits the front, you know, headlines of newspapers and and what gets blamed is vegan diets get blamed. It's not, you know, they don't blame a parent, who is, you know, not knowledgeable and who's under feeding their child or whatever the case may be. They blame the vegan diet. We don't do that with omnivorous diets. We don't see a malnourished. Right. Child who's eating McDonald's three times a day. You know, and blame it on the omnivorous. Yes, we do that with vegan diets. And so we we are really on trial in the eyes of the world. And so we need to get this right. And it's not that difficult. But there are some potential pitfalls, and we need to recognize them and we need to take care of them. And as a society who, you know, society who are, you know, we're wanting to leave a softer footprint. We're wanting to be more compassionate. We're wanting to be healthier plant based diets make sense. So, you know, when we had shortfalls with omnivorous diets, like vitamin D, we just added it to cows milk or we, you know, if we were short on iodine and we added it to salt, we, we added folate to flour and, and other things to, to or folic acid, really to, to increase, you know, that in, in the diet. So there's lots of nutrients we've added to foods for to ensure omnivorous diets provide all the nutrients we need. So what are we saying for plant based diets. What are we like short on calcium, vitamin D. Yeah. So what is the potential nutrient shortfalls? Our number one vitamin B12 because vitamin B12 is a nutrient that is, made by bacteria. And so it will be found in animal products that contain the bacteria, from soil. Right. Yeah. And it will be in maybe a little bit in unsanitary foods. So, like if you make tempeh in an unsanitary condition, you might get some B12. But generally we, we tend to like to make sure our food supply is clean it is fine. It's fine. You like the methyl? I'd use the spray. Yeah. The methyl group element is fine as well. It's it's less stable. So you might need to take a little more of it and maybe take it every day instead of just twice a week you would with cyano. So we're looking at a thousand micrograms twice a week, for younger individuals, for people 65 plus, most experts say 500 to 1000 a day. Okay, I keep mine in the fridge, my spray, and then I spray it under my tongue every morning when they open my fridge. And. Okay, the thing is, is, is that to me, if you're vegan or you're, you know, 100% plant based, you, it's not a bad idea that when you get a medical check up and lab test done, get your B12 done, okay, know where you're at. Because sometimes you end up writing quite high. Yeah. Yes. With supplements. And so. Yes. Okay. Well maybe I can cut it back a little. So if you know where you're at that. Yeah. It's good to get that tested. What else are we low on. Iodine. Zinc. Yeah. So so the other nutrients that we need to consider vitamin D, especially if you live in a cooler climate for even part of the year. Vitamin D, everybody's short of vitamin D. Not sure. Not just plant based eaters and D3. D3 tends to be a, it tends to work a little better in terms of keeping your your vitamin D status up. Now, the other thing to know is that there is one food that's in the vegan world that is actually can be an excellent source of vitamin D, and that's mushrooms. And so if you when you buy mushrooms in a store, you don't know if they've been exposed to UV light, which will make them vitamin D sources. But what you can do is you can actually buy regular butter, portobello or whatever kind of mushrooms you're buying. And during the warm months you can put them, gills up in the sun for 10 to 15 minutes. And that will bring the level of vitamin D up to like, yeah, one serving a give you as much as you'd get from eight eggs. It's, Wow. And it will never do that. Yeah, it will last in the fridge for like 7 or 8 days. The vitamin D remains quite stable. And so that's just a really simple way of boosting vitamin D in your, in your food. But most people need a supplement, so I, I suggest 1 to 2000, you know, 1 to 2000. I use, you know, per day for most adults. That's reasonable. And then beyond B12, vitamin D, the other things to think about are calcium. If you use a calcium fortified nondairy milk, it's generally not a problem to to get to the RDA for for calcium. But we do need to be conscious of calcium sources. And so for leafy greens, if you're putting spinach in your smoothie instead of kale, for example, that there's a lot of, oxalic acid in, in spinach. So you're not going to absorb as much cow, you'll only absorb about 5%. So what's the best leafy green then? The best leafy greens are, kale. So the ones that are high in oxalate, maybe should start that way. Swiss chard, beet greens and spinach. Not good sources of calcium. Even though they've got high numbers, you can't absorb much of the calcium in those. But but other other greens are fine, like kale and bok choy. You know, most of the Chinese greens and, and, turnip greens and all of those are, are great. And then the other nutrients, to think about iron and zinc and, and zinc, you know, again, both of those nutrients legumes, nuts and seeds. So those are key sources of those nutrients. And then the other thing that I would say just to be somewhat conscious of is, certainly iodine, is a very important one. If you're not using iodized salt, you need a source of iodine because you're not generally going to get enough unless you're a regular seaweed, either. And so if you eat seaweed, you're going to get tons of iodine. But if you're not, then I would suggest an iodine supplement of 150 micrograms a day. Okay. And then one other nutrient that I think is worth mentioning, and this is very controversial, but I feel quite strongly about it, is omega three fatty acids and, and vegans and, and plant based eaters can get enough alpha linolenic acid from flax seed and chia seed and hemp seed and walnuts and so forth. But we must rely on conversion then, of alpha to the longer chain, more biologically active EPA, which are opposed to Pantanal acid and Dakota hexane or acid, which are much more biologically active. These are the, you know, the, the, the raw materials with which we build our, you know, resolve and, and protectant and, and all of these, very potent, chemicals that control our body systems and help with blood pressure and inflammation and all of those things. And and so if we don't convert ala very well to these long chain omega threes, then it could impact over time our cognitive function, it could impact a number of health, markers and so heart health and so forth. And so I suggest that people take an EPA, DHEA supplement. And that doesn't mean taking fish oil. Fish actually don't even get their EPA and they don't make EPA, and they get it from microalgae, these little plants in the ocean. And so now we're culturing the microalgae and extracting the EPA and DHEA. And then we can, you know, get it directly from the source. Yeah. Cut out the middleman, the middle fish. Exactly. And we don't have to rape the oceans of fish. We don't, you know, it's not it's not contaminated with mercury or any of that. So I think that's a very fine option. And in my view, the evidence isn't all there yet. We're, we're we need more research desperately on this topic. But the evidence to me is strong enough to suggest advantages to supplementing. And the level of supplementation I would recommend would be around the at least 3 to 500mg a day for pregnant and lactating women and at least 200 of that being being DHEA. And then for other adults, I would recommend at least 2 to 300 a day. Probably better to be around the 500 a day if you've done an omega three index test and it comes back that you're very low, you probably need 1000 to 1500 milligrams a day to get up to where you know, the recommended eight. You know, the 8% on the omega three. Yeah, done such a good job of of talking us through what nutrients we need for aging. Well, now, I just want to ask you some some fun questions. I always ask, like, what's your best piece of advice for aging? Well, but I think you already gave that with the leading, the purposeful life and being compassionate. So. But what's the best piece of advice you've ever received? Not age related, just best piece of advice. Well, you know, I, I would, there's so many pieces of advice you receive over your lifetime. But, you know, when I was a little girl, my my mama always told me to treat everyone with kindness and respect, no exceptions. And she would say, if you don't have anything good to say about someone, don't say anything at all. And boy, did she live that. I never really say a bad thing about anyone in my entire life, really. And and you know, it had really a profound impact on how I approached my life. And I think kindness and compassion connect us with other people, regardless of social, personal, cultural, you know, background, age, gender, sexual orientation. And I've traveled to a lot of countries and it helps us to, to me to recognize and respect our common humanity. And it to me, this is just a really good starting point for a meaningful life that's beautiful. Well, is and are your parents still alive? My mom is 87 on Sunday, so she's just in a few days she'll turn 87. And I have to say, she is the most beautiful 87 year old I have ever seen. And she exercises just about every day. She curls on Fridays. She she does yoga. She goes to the gym that is, you know, gentle fitness classes. She walks all the time. She's an amazing shape. She's. That's beautiful inspiration for sure. Does she live near you? She does. So I'm, you know, I go over to her place almost every day or every second day for sure. So she's about maybe an eight minute drive. And my grandchildren are about two blocks away. So I'm very fortunate to have a lot of family close by. And that's nice and intergenerational too. I think that's helpful for everybody. But my, my dad passed away about 13 years ago. And, and, you know, it's it's interesting because my mom has never smoked. She is always exercised. She doesn't like fast food. She doesn't like junk food. She doesn't like chips or soda. She can't stand that stuff. Never has. And and look at her. She's, you know, like the picture of health. My dad was the opposite. He was like a bigger than life, passionate person. And everything had to be big. He was easily stressed. He had high blood pressure and he developed heart disease and diabetes and all of that. He ended up on dialysis for the last 11 years of his life. And and he, you know, he just he was tended to be sedentary. He, you know, all of that. And I could just see the difference in, you know, how their lifestyle choices impacted their quality of life. It was just remarkable. Those are remarkable lessons from watching your parents age. Do you have a favorite person that you admire for their like a public person that you admire for their approach to aging? Oh, absolutely. And that would be Jane Goodall. I you know, I mean, I, I love I admire so much about her, but I think where aging is concerned, she's at a really high bar. Yeah. Or the world, or she, she is rooted in purpose. She is actively engaged. She's connected to nature. She's hopeful. She has this open mindset. And to me, she is just proof positive that age is not a limitation, but an opportunity to share our wisdom and knowledge and to demonstrate that, you know, to me, she demonstrates that you're never too old to make a real difference in this world. Oh yeah, she's still going strong. She's incredible. Oh, and by the way, when I ask this question to Juliana, whoever she said you, you were her inspiration. Oh. Oh, wow. That's very touch. Isn't that nice? And then do you have a favorite health or beauty product? Well, you're going to laugh because I think my favorite is a jump rope. Oh, I love my jump rope. Because when I'm traveling, it takes no room in my suitcase, even if I have a little, you know, one of those carry on, bags and it can give me a fantastic workout in, like, 15 or 20 minutes. So it is my favorite little, you know, health promoting tool. That is a good one. I have not heard that one before and I agree with that. Gosh. Okay. Another thing I used to jump rope and now I don't know what happened to my jump rope. And I guess in addition to my hit class, I got to do jump rope. Now. And what, what's your favorite concert you've ever been to? Well, you know what? I have to admit that I am not a big concertgoer because I find concerts hard to justify financially. Yes. They're expensive, but I have seen a handful, and I think some of the ones I've seen, Brian Adams was my favorite. Brian Adams is, well known, vegan. But is he vegan? Oh, yeah. He's been for years. Oh, and and he is, just such a talented musician. I love him. Now, if somebody said to me, I'm going to gift you with the ticket to any concert that you would really like to see, I think I would pick Elton John. Oh, yeah. Love to see Elton John. Thank you. Might be a tiny bit late for that. He stopped touring, but yeah, he's incredible. Oh, I actually have seen him. I saw him with, with Billy Joel, and they had their pianos together. That was maybe one of the best. You could have been incredible. Yeah, yeah, that was it was a long time ago, but that was an incredible concert. Well, Brenda, thank you so much for talking to me and sharing your knowledge with us. And, you know, Juliana didn't lie. You're you're wonderful. And I appreciate you. Thank you so much, Lauren. And thank you for all the work that you're doing to spread the knowledge of so many people, including yourself, to the world. So thank you so much for that. Thank you. Inviting me? Oh, you take care. You too. Bye bye. Bye bye. Thanks for listening, friend. From my heart to yours. Be well. Until we meet again.