Menopause & Sexuality: How Hormones Shape Attraction & Desire with Jane Hardwicke Collings

Jane is a grandmother and a keeper of sacred knowledge. She carries the lineage of Shamanic Midwifery from her teacher, Jeannine Parvati Baker. Jane teaches us about the Shamanic Dimensions of menarche, birth, menopause, The Wisdom of the Cycles, Women’s Mysteries or Blood Mysteries, and Women’s Rite of Passage. Menopause corresponds to the autumn of our lives. We are harvesting what we have been cultivating and may need to confront and heal certain aspects of our lives. We learn how to be more in touch with the cycles of life and the moon cycles. Most importantly, we learn that this time in our lives is a great time of power and transformation!

Join Jane for her Autumn Woman Harvest Queen Workshop in Tulum, Mexico on May 5, 2025 and her Siren Call Tour in Mexico and Canada in May, June, and July.

https://janehardwickecollings.com/events/autumn-woman-harvest-queen-tulum/

https://janehardwickecollings.com/siren-call-tour-2025/

https://janehardwickecollings.com/

If you want to get in touch with the show, email us at lauren@agelikeabadassmother.com; we'd love to hear from you! 

#Menopause #Perimenopause #WomensHealth #MenopauseSupport #HormoneBalance #MidlifeWomen #MenopauseAwareness #HealthyAging #EmpoweredWomen #MenopauseMatters #health #wellness #mentalhealth  #podcast 

Transcript

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Hi, friends. Lauren here. Well, welcome. This week we talked to Jane Hardwick Collings. She is a keeper of sacred knowledge from the matriarchy. And she teaches us that menopause corresponds to the autumn of our lives. So we are now harvesting what we've been cultivating. And we may need to confront and heal certain aspects of our lives. But most importantly, this phase of our life is about empowerment. And near the end, we learn how to be more in touch with the cycles of life and the moon cycles. I mean, I couldn't get enough of her. Just wait till you listen and you can join Jane for her Autumn Woman Harvest Queen workshop into Mexico on May 5th, or look for ongoing dates on her website. She always has workshops going on. Her website is Jane Hardwick collings.com. And don't forget you can now watch us on Spotify or YouTube and please share this podcast with a friend. Since you guys have been doing that age like a badass mother has jumped into the top 10% of all podcasts and I am from the bottom of my heart. So sincerely grateful to each and every one of you. So thank you. Hi friends, I'm Lauren Bernick and I'm flipping the script about growing older. My guests have been influencers since before that was even a thing. Welcome to the anti Anti-Aging podcast. Welcome to age like a badass mother. Jane Hardwick Collings is a grandmother, former home birth midwife for 30 years. A teacher, writer and a menstrual childbirth and menopause educator. She offers training programs on mother and daughter preparation for menstruation, and workshops on the spiritual practice of meditation and the sacred dimensions of pregnancy, birth and menopause. Jane founded and runs the School of Shamanic Woman Craft, an international women's mystery school, and she created the first holistic menstrual cycle charting app called Spinning Wheels. Please welcome Jane. Hello, Jane. Hello, Lauren. Thank you so much for inviting me here. I love the name of this podcast, a US and mother fan. So you are. You are a badass mother and grandmother. Yeah, I think I say this a lot, so I'm sorry if I'm obnoxious. Everyone, but I. I really am excited. I think I'm always excited about our guests because I book them. I wouldn't want to, you know, have them on if I was if I were not excited and my friend sent me, one of your stories on Instagram and it's a story, so it's gone. Obviously, I don't remember exactly what it was, but I was so taken with it because it was something about aging and like how we are not allowed to age or something like that. And I was like, damn it, she's so right, and we have to have her on the podcast. what are women's mysteries? What a woman's mysteries. Teacher in a shamanic crafts woman. What's so exciting? What is. Right. So the women's mysteries is actually ancient knowledge. Wisdom, rituals and rites from the matriarchal cultures. So before the patriarchy, so way, way back. And they're all focused on a woman's experience of the menstrual cycle. And our rites of passage of men are our first period and every pregnancy and menopause. So it's often also called the blood mysteries. So basically it's the feminine knowledge, wisdom and power that has been lost to us in the patriarchy. So it's ancient stuff that we're remembering. And, you know, when I teach this to women, it really is a remembering, especially also included in the women's mysteries woven in through it are a lot of other things, including the wisdom of the cycles, which is like paramount information for every Earthling, and it's information that has found a block to us. It's not taught anymore. It's because we live in a patriarchy, which is an age just culture that values youth and beauty and 24/7 availability and instant gratification and achievement. Now. And so with that, what happens is our culture does not honor the cycle. And so we see the effect of that. People burn out, businesses collapse, the world goes to shit because people are ignoring the natural cycles. So the women's mysteries weaves all that into it, as well as ways to honor ourselves through our rites of passage. So it's really important information that is actually affecting us and totally running our lives, whether we know it or realize it or not. So it's much of it is a reclamation. And as I said, I remembering when I do my workshops, I say to the women, I'm going to teach you the wisdom of the cycles. But actually, you know all this already. It's in your body, it's in nature, it's in everything around you. So this will be more like a remembering, can you, can you give us an example of how we can be more in tune with our cycles? And I mean, is this like how it relates to the moons and the seasons or. I'm not exactly sure what you're talking about. Yeah. Give me an example. Sure. So the wisdom of the cycles is about understanding what it's like, what these cycle is, because there's one cycle and everything goes through it just at different speeds. And the cycle goes birth growth, full bloom, harvest, decay, death, rebirth, growth, full bloom, harvest, decay, death, rebirth over and over and over again. So everything goes through that cycle for some it's literal, like the vegetation cycle in the garden, in nature, through the seasons of the earth, in in all the ways. And for others, it's metaphoric, but not really like. So we as our life seasons go through that cycle. So birth growth. Right. And that takes us through the spring of our lives, the maiden season. And then full bloom is the summer or mother or creator season. And then harvest is the autumn or the post menopause and death, decay and death. The decline is our winter season of Crone. So this cycle plays out in our life cycle and our life seasons. It plays out in a day. It plays out in a lunar cycle. It plays out in the Earth seasons. And the cycle applies to everything. Even this conversation we're having now. It began, it will grow, it will have its peak, and then it will come down and finish, you know? So it's just everything does this. But in our culture, we just want to keep going up. Every company has new growth plans, new sets, new growth every year. There is nothing in nature that's healthy, that keeps growing. Oh my God, that's so much to digest. I don't even know what question I want to ask first. Did that make. Well, no. Yeah, it makes total sense. So, so like, a post menopausal season is the autumn. So that explains I was going to ask about your retreat the autumn woman. Autumn woman. Harvest queen. Yeah. And so, what are some things that you do on this retreat to honor this phase of our life? Well, what is this? Yeah, well, it's particularly post menopause in the autumn season of our lives requires a lot of attention from us now, because it's been ignored in the past. You know, it's been like you reach menopause, and then it's kind of all over and all downhill, and you're not even useful anymore. I'm exaggerating, but not much. Yeah. You know, there's a lot of there's a lot of wounding in our culture around menopause and aging for women. So in the autumn Woman Harvest Queen workshop. So it's a one day workshop. Talk about the cycles like I just did, but take a bit longer, obviously. And I draw the map of the wisdom of the cycles. And so in that autumn woman harvest Queen workshop, which is about harnessing the transformational powers of menopause, what we learn about is menopause in context. So in the context of the cycle, which is kind of what we're talking about now in the context of the culture, which, you know, you don't have to look too far to see how menopause is now being seen as a hormonal deficiency and a disease that needs medical control, or else we're all going to have all these diseases and die and whatever, and we'll aged, you know, menopause come to blame for so many things, including aging. Like men age, they don't go through menopause. Aging is part of the cycle. So this whole approach to menopause now is disregard ING the cycle and staying with this patriarchal thing of keep going up and stay up, don't come down and down isn't bad and up isn't good. It's just the cycle. There's the ascent, the peak and the descent. There's the nadir or the void where you start, and then you go up to the peak or the zenith, and then you come down or wane or descent back down to the nadir again. It's everything goes like this, everything. So back to menopause, that workshop. like all rites of passage. But menopause is actually the the final one in the blood mysteries, or the men's or the women's mysteries. It's a rebirth. It's a time of massive transformation. Like starting your periods, and like having a baby or being pregnant. It's like massive transformation. And as a midwife, I didn't think they could possibly be anything more transformational than giving birth until I went through menopause. And, you know, it is so powerful and it is a birth. It's a labor and a birth that takes as long as it takes, and often it takes a decade to basically go through the process with the hormones of fertility and reproduction change to a new level, which is very similar to the pre puberty level. And so then we get to menopause and menopause because it's into the autumn of our lives, is what autumn is. It's time. It's the harvest season. So the harvest is feedback and the feedback that we get in our bodies, our minds, our whole emotional psyche, everything about us, the journey through menopause. So this is part of what the other part of the workshop is, menopause. In the context of our our own lives. What happens at menopause is like a readout of our lifestyle until that point. So, you know, it's huge. So we go through the declining hormones and menopause. Our experience of menopause is often more of a readout of our adrenal glands, you know, out. So if we're burnt out, we arrive at menopause, burnt out. It's going to be a big journey or the state of our nervous system. So the more highly strung you are, the more hypervigilant you are, the more intense the experiences are going to be, as well as the amount of caffeine and alcohol that we consume will also affect our experience of menopause by increasing the severity of the symptoms. Oh wow. Okay, so so if I'm understanding you right, if we have a difficult experience with menopause, it's because of maybe our lifestyle. And I mean, I was in the spring of our lives. And what do you mean by that? Birth, how we were born, our childhood. So all the things that happened in our childhood as well as our birth, you know, like most of the women going through menopause now and just a little bit on the side at the moment, menopause is a $16 billion industry. Oh, yeah. And in 2030, there are going to be 1.2 billion menopausal women. So it's a race to capture this market. You know, so we need to remember that that's going on as well. So back to the harvest, the feedback. So just think of the garden in the autumn. It's the fruit or the vegetables that were planted in the spring. So the harvest of the apple tree or the veggie garden is a readout or feedback of how well the seeds were looked after when they sprouted. So think of this in your life cycle. So the sprouting of the seed. So that's like, you know, our early childhood and then how it grows to be a seedling, which is like a mini ark experience when we're initiated into womanhood. And then it grows to be more of a plant and it has deeper roots and more aerial bits, and then it starts to bud and blossom, bud and blossom, and then create the flower and then the fruit. So you got that process. So we go through that as well. So how well or not. Well our seedlings were looked after. So us when we were children affects what happens at menopause. It's a it's think of it in another way. It's the same as the menstrual cycle. So menopause the experience of menopause is reflected in the menstrual cycle. In week three of the menstrual cycle called the inner autumn. It's the time when estrogen reduces in our menstrual cycle. And it's been pathologized. It's called PMS. It's the time when women no longer comply by and we know the truth, right? Everybody knows that, right? That's a choice. Yeah, that's a way to look at it. I love it because it's the result of the estrogen going down after ovulation if you don't get pregnant. So that is like a microcosm of the macrocosm of menopause. So in the same way that your PMS experience or your week three or your inner autumn of your menstrual cycle is a direct feedback of how well or not well you looked after yourself when you were bleeding. Okay, so so expand that out to our lives. Our menopause experience is the direct feedback of our childhood and then how it was, how we were nurtured, and then all the experiences that we had on the way to Autumn. So are you saying like if we were not nurtured properly or didn't look after ourselves by eating healthfully, our menopausal experience might be more difficult. And if so, what? How do we what can we do about that? It will be more on our standing, it will be more impacted. And yes, totally. That's exactly what I'm saying. So a big part of menopause is inner child healing work. And okay, in terms of nourishment and nutrition, one of the leading causes of osteopenia and osteoporosis in menopause is an eating disorder. So really? Yes. Because when you have an eating disorder, you are malnourished basically. And your bones get compromised like every other part of your body. And so we our osteo, our bone health, our bone density peaks in our 20s. And then it goes on a slow decline. And then at menopause there's a 10% drop in our bone density, which is fine if you arrived there healthy. But if you don't that's huge. So just as a sideline for anybody who had an eating disorder when they were growing up or have one still or in their adulthood, you need to do the building up of nourishing yourself to improve and increase your bone health. And that's possible. You know, there's lots of naturopaths who have regimes to follow, and it's not just taking calcium because you need to take other vitamins and all other thing. Bone health is not just about calcium. So that's one thing. So that's like a direct feedback in the bones. If you've if you've been malnourished as a teenager or as however old you are when you have your eating disorder. And then in terms of the inner child work also, the other part is in terms of what we face or have to face or don't want to face in menopause about, sexuality and how that shows up with changes to our libido or whatever that is also related to our developing sexuality. Because whatever happens at the beginning of something a life, a process, a version of ourselves, whatever happens at the beginning affects what unfolds and how. So a lot of the work that I encourage women to do in terms of being with this themselves in their new sexuality post menopause because it's different, is to remember their first sexual experience, and I would say their first consensual sexual experience if they had had childhood sexual abuse or were raped or, you know, all that kind of horrible stuff because that's more like a trauma that needs dealing with on its own. But when you consensually begin your life as a sexual being in partnership, so not self-pleasure because, you know, we could be doing that from when we were very little. But when you engage as a sexual being with another person, what if, however, that starts affects what happens and then there's a rebirth of that aspect of ourselves at menopause, our sexuality, like there is a rebirth of every part of ourselves. So, you know, part of sexual healing, which is what menopause is all about, healing all the unhealed parts of us. That's a quote in Northrup and says, it's the mother of all wake up calls. And she also says it's a rite of passage designed to heal all the unhealed parts of us. So that's what comes up when not going crazy. We're not, melting down. We are facing the things we've been refusing to face. We are facing the things we've been ignoring, all that kind of stuff. That's what happens at menopause. Now if we delay it, which is what HRT does, hormone replacement therapy, then, what happens is, we take these synthetic synthetic hormones, either estrogen and progesterone or both of them that keep us in this sort of limbo so we don't experience the symptoms of the declining levels, but in the background. So we take these we're up here, hovering here. Some women even start menstruating again and keep bleeding. Having a period until, you know, well into their 70s, which I would think that was the bit over the top. But the synthetic thing holds you there in limbo land. It's a bit like the oral contraceptive pill. It just disturbs your whole hormonal story and holds you in some limbo land, which doesn't feel quite right. And women say that when they go off the pill. Oh, I've got myself back. And women who go off HRT when they haven't been enjoying it or not wanting to use it anymore, say when they come off it, oh, I feel myself again. Right. So myself is what's going on in your body. So just back to the HRT holding you at this level and in the background in your body due to your liver doing all its work, your hormone levels of estrogen and progesterone do drop down to that similar level of what it was. Prep puberty. And you're hovering above here with this kind of, you know, in a limbo. And then if you stop, when you stop and the recommendation was always don't take it for longer than five years. But now they're saying, oh, no, you can take it forever. Like they say, you can take the oral contraceptive pill forever. Like, you know, I think yeah, we've, we've had some guests on like OB GYNs and so forth who are saying that it's really, and I research the people I bring on. I'm not just bringing on any old ObGyn. And the doctor, Deborah Shapiro, who we had on, talked about that. The evidence is kind of incontrovertible now that it's not good to take hormones and that if you are having really bad vaginal dryness or whatever, it's better just to if you need a little boost, maybe a little estrogen cream, you might disagree with that in your vagina, but not to take pills and whatever. Maybe you need a little boost to get you through, but I think, are you saying it's just better to to experience the symptoms? Like what if you're having really bad vaginal dryness and you can't have sex because it's painful? What, like. Well, there's what what does that mean? And what are you supposed to do? There is much more available to us than hormone replacement therapy. You know, it's such an invention. Well, I've just done a big post on Instagram with tips and tools for how to use menopause as a transformational experience, and vaginal dryness is one of the symptoms that I go through and describe and say what you know, what you can do, and I'm just opening the page here and I'll just read to you that basic. Yes, please. There are many things to do natural remedies wise, you know, like such as what? So using Eco-Friendly Vaginal Moisturizers that there are products like that. Yes. So one thing we have to remember is that the vaginal wall is one of the most, most absorbent parts of our body. Yes. And so you must not put something in your vagina that you would not put in your mouth to eat, right? Yes, yes. You know, that's a good point. Yes. All the, oh, most of all the lubricants that you can buy have got a lot of prep in them preservatives. And, you know, other toxic substances. So if, you know, imagine a woman who's eating well and exercising well and doing all the things and she uses some toxic lubricant. You know, that's not right. She would really want to be doing and I would think so. Right. Gets it into your bloodstream. Only it's a that's mucous membranes in your vagina that it's an absorption route to your body. Yes. So what what what kind of moisturizers and lubricants. We learned also on that podcast that moisturizers and lubricants are two different things, which I didn't know. Yeah. Like a moisturizer maybe you would use daily in a lubricant. You would use during sex. Yes. Okay. Correct. Yeah. So moisturizers like some women need to use them often like daily. And if they have like, kind of itchiness or whatever. And that's what's the one brand that I use and have seen is called. Yes. Okay. Yeah. And that's, that's why I put that in my notes. I'm from the States but I'm not. Yes, sure. I've seen it here. Okay. Well I've at least seen that okay. So that's clean a clean product okay. What shouldn't it have in it. Parabens or. Yeah anything. Dyes, numbers anything. That's good to not you know that like un food. Look. Look at it like you know food. That's good thing okay. And then in terms of not natural lubricants you know coconut oil is a is a favorite for many okay. You know so so those kind of things that the moisturizers can be helpful for sex as well. But you need to put it in a little while ahead. So it's not like a kind of lubricant to use in the moment. It's not just, kind of a slippery barrier like a loose, okay. Whereas a moisturizer plumps up the vaginal tissue. So, you know, if you're if you're going to have sex tonight, say, then you might want to put it in a little while before, a bit like we used to put diaphragms in, you know, like get ready. Oh, God. I never use that. Oh that I never use that. But but I should have because I was on the pill and I guess you're saying that that's, you know, I mean, looking back on it, I can really see now that that was probably not a good choice to be on the pill because it's. Yeah. Yeah. Do you know about the pill? Is that well tell me. No this. But when you're on the pill, if you're heterosexual, which is presumably why you're on the pill, but not necessarily. Girls get put on the pill for acne, for sure. Like it's ridiculous. It's the most one of the most highly diagnosed, so highly prescribed medications. It's so famous. It's called the pill. The pill. Right. You know, and I haven't seen it, but there were there's an awesome movie called The Sweetening of the Pill The Business of Contraception, made by the women who also made the movie The Business of Being Born. So I suggest everybody watch is that it's about the oral contraceptive pill. But the big thing is, and I hope everybody knows this, that when you're on the pill, you are attracted to a different kind of man than you would be if you were not on the pill. What? Why is that? It's because you have high levels of estrogen and it's like you, the pill kind of makes you pseudo pregnant. You it's it's a different sort of state of being. It's like the hormones make it like you're pregnant. And so when you're pregnant on the pill, you're attracted to a man that's more like family, who will nurture you and look after you. And when you're not on the pill, you are not attracted to that kind of man. You are attracted to a kind of man that has as different as possible genetic material to you, because that ensures the most likelihood of survival. So women who are on the pill, who meet their mate, fall in love, want to make babies. The women go off the pill, and then all of a sudden they're like, oh my God, he doesn't smell right, and it's all right. And oh, they're not attracted. Oh, then then it's, oh, it's something wrong with me. I'm crazy. But you know. Oh, whoa. Well that's fascinating. Yeah. I haven't seen any experiments. Not experiments, research on what happens in terms of sexual attraction for women on on hormone therapy, post menopause and even women who take testosterone around menopause like, I know what one woman who was taking testosterone during perimenopause because she was feeling, tired and, low libido and took her, took the, testosterone and she turned into a randy teenage version of herself. She was right. That's why people do that. So, you know, and and then in term relationship, when you're going through menopause and all of a sudden you're like a randy teenager and you're attracted to all of these younger men, how helpful is that? Oh, I see what you're saying. Well, I mean, I feel like that's why people go on that because they're not. They lost their libido. And so, you know, I know you're saying that we have to stop fighting the symptoms and ask what they're showing us, but what is that showing us if our libido has dropped, if our vagina's drying out, if we're angry, if we're I mean, what what is that showing us? It's showing us we are transforming. We are going through menopause. And this is one of the experiences. And it will change. It's a process. Remember the hormones are going like this until they get up and down, up and down, until they get to a low level. And then yeah. And so in terms of vaginal dryness, I wanted to add another thing that's really helpful is nourishing ourselves on every level it's using. Yoni steaming. Have you heard of that? I think I have, but can you tell us what that is? It's it's because I don't know exactly. It's a practice. It's kind of ancient to the Australian Aboriginals, First Nations, Australians have done it. It's a, it's a it's a process that many women do all around the world. And it's using this concept of the vagina being a really absorbent, you know, tissue. So you see over and there's the way all kinds of ways you can do this. But you sit over a steaming tea sort of tea infusion, okay. Herbs, herbs that your vagina will, you know, absorb that increase the elasticity and the tissue health in the vagina. And it's wonderful. So there's all specific herbs for this and also to drink the herbs. You know, there's a whole wise woman way of dealing with menopause that's not about HRT. And I wonder where do you. Yeah I would recommend. Yeah. Where do you find this. Yeah. The work of Susan Weed. So it's not. How do you say Susan and Sue as you know Sue as un it's Susan Wade. Okay. So she's she's an American. She's on the East Coast. She's got lots of info on her websites and on her Instagram account. And I would recommend that, men, women going through menopause look at her stuff about Yoni steaming and nourishing, nourishing infusions. and then the other thing I wanted to say about the vaginal dryness is that it's part of a journey that is a sexual healing process. So it's not necessarily business as usual, which it's the same for everything to do with post menopause. It's not business as usual. It's a whole new game, a whole new story. So in terms of our sexuality and our libido, like and this is the same for the answer of the question, why, you know, should we should stop fighting the symptoms of menopause and listen to them that the story that's going on with our libido is not all of a sudden just about our libido going down. It's why and how and what is that linked to? Because another thing that happens in menopause, in the healing part of it is sexual healing. So going back to that first sexual experience and thinking, how did I start my life as a sexual being and how is that showing up now? So I just give you an example. I like many, many women in our first experience of consensual sex, had the experience of, oh, is that what what is one way? Why would we not allowed to do that, you know. Right. And that's probably more of a story of our lack of knowledge about it and our partners lack of knowledge about it. You know, when you're in your early teens or however old you are. So whatever impression you develop then is plays out the whole time. And so when you go through the fertile time of your life, your body, our bodies are organized around making babies. That's what the fertility cycle is all about. So we have high libido when we ovulate. Yes, of course. And we also, interestingly, have another higher libido just before we bleed. Yes. And that's two different reasons. So the peak of libido and ovulation is because you are most likely going to get pregnant. And that's the whole point. And the peak of libido just before bleeding is because of the hormone levels that, testosterone is relatively higher than the estrogen and progesterone. So we have a testosterone driven libido at just before we bleed, which is very different. It's a bit like the one at at ovulation is like, oh, whereas the one at testosterone is, oh, you know what I mean. Yes I do, you know, I've, I again, I apologize to my audience who listens all the time. They're probably sick of me saying this, but I'm 56 years old and I still, have a regular cycle, and it's crazy, like, I'm. I have my period right now. It's like insanity. I don't even I don't know, I mean, how old would there's something with that? Got a 12. Had a long damn time. Yeah, well, maybe that, you know, it's not going to be a problem in terms of, pathology. You're just in that outlier group. Yeah. So, like the average age is 50. And then I heard someone say 52 the other day, right? Yeah. Everything's in the middle. Sure. So 50. I guess I'm just on the outside at 56. You did okay. That's good. I had my first last period at 54, and then I had my next last period at 56. Oh, wow. So you had a break in between? Yeah, I think I'm still ovulating. I think, because I can feel it. Well, that's it, you know, you I guess use it because this too shall pass. Yeah. Hey, now, okay. Something more about, Oh, yes. Please stop fighting the symptoms of menopause. Yes, please. First of all, when has fighting our body function ever worked? That's such a good point, you know? You know, right? Just not a thing. So I think that we've I've, as I've already said, we've learned a lot about childbirth that we need to bring to menopause because they're connected. One right of passage leads to the next. And that's another point that a lot of the healing work in menopause is childbirth, trauma, healing. Yes. All the things and the menstrual pathology that we've been experiencing as well. So, so when we we should have hopefully learned that how we give birth is matches our life. It's like a readout of, yeah, I did not I feel like I really didn't do that the way I would do that now for sure. You know, the two decisions we make about our birth that have the hugest impact on the outcome of the place of birth and the primary carer, and that therefore indicates which model of care we choose. And most women think you got to go to the doctor, the specialist and the private hospital if you can afford it. But you definitely we think we've been brainwashed to think that we need medical specialist support, or else our babies and ourselves are going to die or something, you know, and you know. So the obstetric model for birth focuses on fear. Sorry, on risk and the likelihood of that happening. And the thing about childbirth is that if you bring fear to it, then you know it doesn't work. Fear makes adrenaline, which is the antidote to oxytocin, which is what labor and birth and breastfeeding are all about. So we really need to be choosing the midwifery model, which is the model that sees childbirth as a natural part of a woman's life, not an explosion of risks waiting to happen. So childbirth, we should know. We should have learned that also. We should have learned during our menstrual cycle experience that all of these things. Childbirth is like a readout of our mindset. As I said, and our menstrual cycle is a readout of our life each month, each cycle. And we learn from both of those things that our body knows what to do. And she speaks to us through the same. So rather than fight the symptoms, we listen to the symptoms. And I really hate the word symptom. Actually, when we were using it for menopause, because symptoms, signs and symptoms are about disease. Menopause is not a disease. So menopause we have we have physical experiences. But I'll just keep saying symptoms because that's what everybody uses until we don't. But the symptoms are, a readout. You know, they, information that is telling us what our body's doing, how and why, and the way to not fight with them, the way to use the physical experience, symptoms of menopause for personal growth and self-awareness is to notice what arises for us in the process of the experience. So just the libido, say. And some women do not lose libido. It increases for menopause for a good number of women is a blissful, even orgasmic experience. But they're not getting that airtime right because they don't get right. Exactly right. So I've done some posts on my Instagram where women talk about the positive experiences of menopause. Great! Have a look in the highlights on the menopause for the women to read it. But basically it's it's about what the symptom tells us. In other words, how our body is talking to us and what arises for us. So back to the libido. Like what arises for you with the decline of your libido? What emotions, what memories? What what, thoughts? What fears. And those are the things to work on. So my own journey through that brought up incredible things for me about and internalized, fear and just want to write something down so I don't forget it. It so my experience of navigating my sexuality, my decreased libido at menopause, brought up internalized feelings for my red thread, my mother line, my female generational trauma. Now, my mother was sexually abused as a child and there's just be. And so I could feel that. Now I just want to explain how you know that. So when when you're pregnant with a daughter. So think of the mother pregnant with a daughter from 20 weeks gestation. All that baby girl's eggs form. A pregnant with a daughter from halfway through. You have all your grandchildren that you would ever have from that daughter in your womb syncing. And so you make all of us crazy. We were all in our grandmother's womb and it's wow. The second half of the pregnancy she had of our mother, our mother's birth, and then we were in our mother's body all the time from when she was in utero, in our grandmothers body. We were in her mother's body all the way until we were. The egg that ripened, ovulated, was conceived, and then we gestated in our mother's womb, and then we left her body. So that's a long time to be in our mother's body, picking up the energetics of what the story is, what the trauma in the woods. So I was as a premature egg in my mother's body all the way through her her sexual abuse, as were my siblings and so energetic that impacted us. And then I was raised by her and she was had she was raising me and my siblings from her experience of life as you do. And so she was giving me I didn't realize this at the time. Obviously, I as a child and then a young adult, she was giving me mixed, mixed messages about pleasure and pain and consent and promiscuous ness from promiscuity and, not having sex. So it was all a bit confusing, but I didn't know it was confusing because I was just, you know, being taught or learning from her such that when, when this all came up for me, this libido decline and the journey of my sexual healing through menopause was that that's what came up for me, that I was feeling really insecure and not sure about how to be sexually without the drive to make babies. Okay, so it was returning back to my pre puberty perceptions of sexuality that were based on the way my mother raised me as a survivor of sexual abuse. Does that make sense? Yeah, I, I see what you're saying, that, you know, we really are being it's confrontation basically. You know, you have to confront the things that maybe you haven't dealt with before in this autumn of your life. It's making a lot of sense. And, and I really like your explanation of to stop fighting the quote unquote symptoms and, and ask what they're showing us because, and also, I said this, I read it somewhere in that interview that I just, referenced with Doctor Deborah Shapiro that I said I read somewhere that it's not that women want sex less when they get to be older, it's that they're not. Maybe sometimes willing to put up with mediocre sex or bad sex, or they want things differently. And, you know, it's maybe a a really good time of, opening up some communication that maybe you really need to have with your partner. Right. Totally. You know, and it could be maybe so much better, you know. Exactly. So it's a renegotiation. Yes. Transformation, which is what that happens in menopause with everything. It's all about a renegotiation and a transformation or change of everything. Your sex, sexuality, your work life balance, your relationship with exercise, what you ate, everything. It all changes. And I just want to say that we're groomed to medicate menopause. Where we start, it starts out of the menstrual cycle. Just take this, take this Tylenol, take this Panadol and carry on business as usual. Don't show any weakness. Just keep going. Don't stop or rest. You know that ignorance of the cycle. Because if you don't stop and rest when you're bleeding, then you have a hell of a time with your PMS. And then wig. Then medication is encouraged in childbirth. You know epidural rates are going through the roof. And as with birth you know it's there's the cascade of intervention. You interfere with one thing and then you know, usually everything rolls on. Oh yeah okay. Totally about that. So then here we go to menopause. Don't worry, there's medication. And then suddenly death is mostly medicated these days. Yes. So, yes, we need to recognize that pattern. It's a clue. And the other the other clue is that in a, in a patriarchy, in this culture in which we live, anything to do with women or the feminine that's put down, feared, made invisible, or made a joke of is a clue that it holds great power. You know, menstrual blood, childbirth, menopause, you know, and it's huge. And the other thing I want to mention is that menopause is related to the other things in our lives of transformation. So adolescence, right. Everybody knows what adolescence is. It's surf being an adult. The next phase is mattresses. Have you heard of mattresses? Yeah. I mean, maybe I know what it is just from the context. Okay. So but we denominator or period of time like adolescence that's been named by a woman called Dana Rafael in the 1970s. And it describes the becoming a mother. Right. And it's been really helpful to mothers who haven't sort of felt like they instantly bonded with their baby or that they they don't feel like a mother anymore at all yet. So it's the process. Like adolescence mattresses, it takes as long as it takes, and it's a process where you decide, how am I going to be a mother? And then the next one and I've given this name a new name to perimenopause, menopause post menopause, pre menopause, like everybody's so confused about what's what. And it sounds very scientific and medical. So I have proposed a new term for that to be sages. Since the becoming a wide sage essence. So adolescence addressing that essence. So reframing menopause is really what we need to do. Take it out of the medical, just like we have for childbirth, like it's not something strange and unusual we're doing. It's reclaiming feminine knowledge, wisdom and power. In the women's mysteries. I just have one. I hope you don't think this is a stupid question, but, you know, you're talk. I know when you're talking about. I guess I really have been groomed about, you know, giving birth and so forth. That has to be in a hospital. Because what if there's an insert? Because I do think about a couple of friends that I've had that lost children because they had bad home experiences. And so how do you balance that? Because I would have liked to have had a more natural experience. But there is that that's a big price to pay to lose a child. Like, how do you for people who are, you know, maybe going through this with their daughters or listening this podcast who are younger? I mean, how do you address that? Yeah. Well, you get real with the stats and you might know two people, but if you look at the big picture that it's safer if in many situations to give birth at home than it is in hospital for both the mother and the. Okay, so you need to look at the statistics rather than the hear, hear the stories, because there's a lot of fear mongering about home birth. And I hear you that they were your friends. And yes, you know, you know the story and that. But one would need to question what kind of care they had, what the set up was, and all of that kind of thing. So, you know, and plenty of babies die in hospital. That's also true. You're right. Yeah. And we've recently there's recently been an inquiry into birth trauma in Australia. And so many women experience crippling birth trauma from the medical model in the hospital for birthing. And I'm sure, you know, plenty of women who've had that experience as well for sure. Yeah. For sure. So the Earth is is safe when you have the right set up. And what's the right set up? The right to have is to have people who attend you who are trained midwives, who know how to do all the things you need to do. The midwives are the experts in normal pregnancy. Birth and postpartum. Doctors are the experts in abnormal pregnancy, birth and postpartum and often what happens with the way the medical model? The obstetric model is a lot of intervention that causes problems. And I'm sure you know, plenty of women who had one thing and it all the things. So that doesn't happen in the midwifery model. And having a hug doesn't mean that you stay there. You use the medical model when you need it like it's not. Yeah, I think that's what happened. Yeah. You know, the transferring for obstetric help when you need it. But that's not I feel like that was not I feel like that's where it went wrong. Like maybe it wasn't recognized that things are really going bad. Okay, back to back to menopause. What? Okay. So why is, Well, I want to talk about. I don't know if I'm saying this right. A West Australian or is it estrogen? Yeah. So it's the the hormone of accommodation. So in, in you've mentioned a few times like we're returning to our previous prepubescent self. And I think it was again Christian Northrup that said something like, you know I don't even remember, like you're sitting around the table and somebody asks you for to pass the brisket and you throw it out the window, or it was something like that because you're like, get your damn food on there. And I love that that we are returning to our former selves and we're not so accommodating. And maybe, you know, is that is that why we're becoming wise at this age or why it's sacred? Okay. Well, Lots of questions there. Let me tell you about estrogen. So at our first period, a veil of estrogen descends upon us. Wait, are you talking about estrogen? Because this is spelled. Oh, yes. Okay, so you're saying no way of spelling it. Okay, okay, so you're just talking about regular old estrogen. Okay. The way we pronounce it in the States. Okay. Go ahead east in Australia. Right. And whoever isn't copying Americans, it's okay. Say yeah. Okay. Gotcha. All right. Just making sure. Yeah. So so so when we up period start, a veil of estrogen descends upon us. And estrogen is known as the hormone of accommodation and self self-check. Yes. So what that looks like as a young girl, like a teenager just started her periods is that yes, she changes the way she is. She wants to fit in. She wants to look like all the other girls. She wants to do all the things. So she sacrifices for self to accommodate what she wants to be with everybody else. Damn it, I hate that. Yes, but. But they don't hate it. It's right. It's the way it is. Because that's the first way we see estrogen affecting our ourselves. So then as we get older, we just completely under the influence of estrogen. And how that looks is when we it's it has a similar effect on us with our babies and also with our other things with birth. So whether it's a career or a business or anything, and particularly with our babies and with the veil of estrogen completely covering us like, you know, it's the dominant hormones estrogen and progesterone, and progesterone is a mild sedative. And the first thing that happens in menopause is progesterone goes down. So we are no longer mildly sedated. Now, we may not have realized we were sedated, but we definitely noticed when we are no longer mildly sedated. Oh, that's why we're coming into our power. That's one of the ways. Yeah, we are no longer mildly sedated, but the estrogen. So with the estrogen in full force, the most common words are things like whatever you want, honey, let's just do what's right for the children. I know I haven't eaten. You haven't? Oh, no. You run along, I'll clean up, I'll catch up, etc.. So then about five years before your last period and you never know when that's going to be this vale. First of all, progesterone goes down so you're no longer mildly sedated. And then this will begin to rise. And then the most added words are things like, how come I'm the only one who does anything around here? Okay, I see what's happening. And then it's like, pick up your washing. I didn't pick it up yesterday and it was okay. Well, it's not okay today. You've changed. Yes. I've changed. Yes. No, that damn straight a shock. Okay, everybody. Including ourselves, because it was okay yesterday. So if everybody knew that this was what happens is vale of estrogen comes up, then we would know what it is. Instead of thinking we're crazy or we've something's wrong with it. You know, 40 to 60% of divorces happen at menopause initiated by women. Oh, the Vale goes up and they're like, oh my God, where am I? What am I doing here? Oh wow. That's very interesting. Okay. So that so another way we're coming in. You've called it an energetic upgrade. So we are really, truly coming back to our selves and our power and all the things. If we just really pay attention, we are no longer mildly sedated. And for the first time in our lives, rather than sacrificing ourselves to everybody else and everything else. And I'm not saying we don't do stuff later. I mean, obviously we do, but we are oriented in the menopause process. With the estrogen going declining, we are oriented to ourselves probably for the first time in our adult life. And that's power. Yeah. Oh, God. That's true, that's true, I love it. Okay, how can we unpack our fears and our cultural baggage around our changing bodies and aging? Well, first thing is, we have to. So it's not a choice, because otherwise you're just going to become a, you know, puppet and daughter of the patriarchy, upholding youth, beauty and 24/7 availability. And that's not sustainable. So that's the most important thing to remember that lifestyle. Those beliefs are not sustainable with life unless you go on the hormones and the anti-depressants and the anti-anxiety mask, all the symptoms. So how we can unpack our fears and cultural baggage is by dismantling our internalized patriarchy. So we can't not have internalized the patriarchy because we were raised by mothers of a patriarchy who were raised by mothers of the patriarchy all the way back now, the way to the way to dismantle our internalized patriarchy is to notice what we are telling ourselves. Notice the judgments we have. Look at me. I'm too fat. UN to thin un too slow, like all the things. Notice them. That's the first clues to your internalized patriarchy. And then you have to grab that I'm too fat or whatever it is and unravel that, like, fucking bullshit. I'm too fat, you know, like, what is fat? You know, why does that cancel me out? Like, oh, like you start to unravel the beliefs and the attitudes and fears that have been instilled in us is the way to do it, is to see the judgments. And the other way to do it is to look at our previous rites of passage and do the healing. So the first one that is helpful, well, actually understanding how we were born has and then figuring out the pattern of that and figuring out how to work with that is extremely important in a work. And I would say that's for sake, for everybody at any time in their life. But in terms of menopause, that's comes up. But let's focus on the women's mysteries that our men are our first period. So that's a that's a rite of passage. And whatever happens at a rite of passage. So everybody be thinking about their first blood. Whatever happened at your first period or didn't happen, whoever was there or not there, what was said and not said and what was going on in your world at that time all adds up. So this goes for men and childbirth and menopause. But let's focus on men. Act it all. The experience all adds up to teach you on a subliminal level, which means you don't even realize you're being taught. You're being culture rated. Which is just a nice way of saying brainwashed into learning how our culture values woman and therefore how we have to behave to be accepted as a woman in our culture. Now, I hope everybody's thinking, oh my God, what happened at my Manok? It was like at worst it was ignored. Or even worse than that, it was, welcome to the curse or whatever. And often, very often our red thread or mother line of female ancestral trauma plays out at our manok because mothers usually initiate their daughters into womanhood at manok in the way they were, unless they've had a grand awakening and don't want their daughters to have the same experience that they did, then they need to do their own inner work to heal their manok, and then they will, you know, do something positive and empowering for their daughters at manok. And also the same goes for boys. You know, boys need to be initiated into manhood by men, not women. And the thing about the rite of passage is that if you don't have a rite of passage, whatever happens is the rite of passage mostrou it. In culture it says, hang on, I just want to say one more thing about men. Go ahead. It's really important. It creates the beliefs and attitudes and fears that we hold about being a woman, and it creates culture on the inside by that and on the outside, because most women have the same experience. So everybody's got the same beliefs, attitudes and fears about the menstrual cycle and their body and, and all of that. So by doing the inner work of healing our men, what we do is to recall the story, figure out what it taught you about being a woman, figure out the theme that it created that has played out all your life, and then come up with a new healed message for your inner maiden because she never goes away. She is in the driver's seat most of the time, and most of the time in her most wounded form. And that's the one who shows up in menopause. The most wounded version of out Inner Child and out, you know, in a young woman. So by healing our menopause and coming up with a new message for our inner maiden, it gives us, and then we have to tell ourselves that over and over and over again. But we we rewire our brain. We know we can do that now. We know about neuroplasticity, so we know we can tell ourselves a new story about what it means to be a woman. And that changes everything. And then, oh, sadly, she who was initiated into womanhood at the altar of manok is the woman that shows up to give birth completely in culture, right it into how she's supposed to behave, to be accepted as a woman and basically more than womanhood. What we are initiated into at manok is menstrual shame, and menstrual shame leads to body shame and body shame leads to low self-esteem, and low self-esteem leads to all manner of wounded behaviors, including eating disorders, self-harm, and risky and dangerous sexual decision making, and menstrual shame leads to birth shame and birth shame leads to menopause. Shame. It's the cycle of shame. And there's a wonderful research paper done by a PhD woman in Australia called Sharon Maloney on the effects of menstrual shame on childbirth. And you know, you can imagine the more menstrual shame, the more intervention in childbirth and the less menstrual shame, the less intervention at childbirth and the less trauma. So. So some things are coming clear on all of that is the prequel to menopause. Menopause is just not some random event. It's the results and accumulation of all of that and the way we feel about aging in our changing bodies and all of that ties back to, you know, I had totally forgotten this when you were talking about men arc. I, my mother, she said this was like a Jewish thing, but I don't know if it was, but this is what her mother did to her. She said it was for good luck, and she slapped me. She's like, if. Have you heard of that before? Yeah. And so she slept. She's like, it's good luck if your cheek is red. And I was like, oh, she just slapped me. She. And then she told me why. I was like, I was like, why are you slapping me? And, I remember when my. But and then, you know, she talked to me nicely about it and blah, blah, but, you know, but, which was ridiculous. So talk about some conflicting information. But I remember when my daughters, got their periods, I was like, this is what my mother did to me, but I'm not going to slap you because I think that that's really wrong. It's, I mean, at least I broke that cycle of. That was just ridiculous, but at least I didn't. I mean, I know my mother didn't mean any harm by it. It was what her mother did, and she thought it was for good luck, which is stupid. Yeah, but yeah, yeah. Unconsciously passing on wounded behavior, you know? Yeah. In cultures. And there's less and less of them these days. But in cultures that value older women, older women, they don't have any menopause symptoms. Oh, that's so interesting one last thing. Like just for the moon cycles. And, you know, how do we stay in touch with our, our femininity through the moon cycles? Is there some advice for that? Because I just find that so fascinating. This was so good. Yeah. So first of all, it's important to notice the moon, you know, to connect with the moon and make a commitment to look where she is every day. Yeah, night, whatever. But then when you do that, you'll start to notice that she's not in the same place every day. And yes, changes every day. And then that is a wonderful, wonderful invitation into understanding the cycle. Now, the lunar cycle is over 700 species on the planet organize their fertility and reproductive cycle around the moon. Over 700. And it was the same for us. So the story goes, I just I know this isn't about the moon, but I want to add this bit. The story goes that before electricity dominated our lives, which isn't that long ago, late 1800s, when there was no light pollution, of which there is so much now, right? You can be in the city, and it'd be a full moon and you can't even see it. You can't even notice. And you know, and we have lights on all night keeping it to be daytime, like when we're messing with our heads. Right. So before electricity dominated our lives, the story goes that all women and it wouldn't be all. But you know, all women ovulated at the full moon and bled at the dark moon. Now, this is because there's a switch in our heads. Related to our melatonin production. So, you know, melatonin is the thing that can help you go to sleep. So we make melatonin. And it's related to the levels of estrogen and progesterone that we're making in our fertility cycle as well. So it's all connected like everything is so that when there was the most light in the night sky, full moon, and in relation to the building light, estrogen and progesterone increased melatonin decrease and we ovulate. Wow. And the full moon. Yeah that's the pattern. That's the blue pro. I messed up then. Well there's no messing up today. These days it's there's too many other influencing factors. You know like we travel we eat different food. But women in traditional cultures, women who live in the country away from light, and women who commit to being connected to the moon will change their menstrual cycle so that it's more in alignment with the moon. And it's not right or wrong because it's there's too many influential factors now. But in terms of how to connect with the moon, there's some wonderful practices to do so we've just had a full moon that was on, a few days ago, and the way to connect with the moon is, first of all, to realize that you're not disconnected, right? You are under her influence like everything else on the planet. And so the ways to the way I connect with the moon, apart from just watching her and realizing I'm a complete lunatic, I'm totally drawn to the moon. And I love it. So. Same. Yeah. Same. So there's prayers we can do with the moon phases. There's the moon does a cycle. I've got a whole lot of information about this in all of my work that I do is how to flow with the lunar cycle. But the most important thing is setting prayers and intentions and wishes. So at the new moon, you plant seeds, metaphoric seeds. You set an intention and then you go to watch it. Because setting an intention isn't is only step one, not the only thing you set your intention. Then you need to watch like a gardener. All the things you need to do to help it grow. So new moon prayers, setting intentions, then full moon prayers. So before the full moon we can dedicate the energy of fullness to something. I dedicate the energy of fullness to my recent project or whatever or. And because everything is fully illuminated under the full moon, it's to give thanks. So a gratitude prayers for what's fully illuminated in your life. And then the dark moon. So before the new moon. So the dark moon in the new moon is actually the same thing. It's 0% illumination, and the new moon is a nanosecond later when it's the new cycle, and the full moon is. That is a moment as well, right? But at the end of the lunar cycle, the dark moon, we our prayers are letting go. So what do you want to let go of it? The dark moon that you don't want to grow again and get bigger in the new moon. And these prayers also similar to the menstrual cycle. So we do blood prayers, collect your blood and pour it back into the earth and and say all the things you want to let go of and all the new things you want to bring into your life. This blood prayers. Oh dang, I've never done that. That's so cool. I'm doing that. Yeah, okay, that is awesome. Have a look on my website. Jane had read colleagues.com. Sign up for the newsletter and you'll get a free PDF called The Spiritual Practice of Menstruation. And I'll teach you how to do all that. Jane. You're amazing. I am so thrilled that we have connected. Honestly, I I've learned so much today, and I've just had so many, realizations about, I don't know, everything. I feel like. And I really I just, I'm really going to reflect on our conversation today, so I appreciate you so much. I'll have to have you back. Thank you so much, Jane. Thank you, Lauren, and take care. I thank you for the work you're doing. Oh. Thank you. Bye bye bye. Thanks for listening, friend. From my heart to yours. Be well. Until we meet again.