Nancy Wilson - Rock Legend Dishes on Big Life Lessons

The rock band Heart didn't break barriers, they brought to light that barriers even existed.  That naivete served them. It allowed them to confidently forge forward with their love of making music without once questioning their place. It was only upon their journey they realized they were women rockers, and for decades have sidestepped the misogyny of the music biz, bucked the musical trends, and remained relevant and securely stationed in their place on the pantheon of rock legends. Nancy Wilson opens up about her family, writing music, divorce, living well in order to age well, the story behind Barracuda, finding true love in her late 50's (she brought her manager on her first date and her lawyer on her second date because she was scared shitless), and of course, being a rocker.

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Hi friends. Lauren here. This week we have quite a treat. It's an encore presentation of Nancy Wilson. Yes, the Nancy Wilson from the legendary rock band heart. And she's talking about big life lessons. And this was just an incredible episode. I think it was one of my favorites because she was just so beautifully open and honest. She was about to go out on tour, actually. They started, heart started their tour, and then her sister Anne was diagnosed with cancer. So they had to postpone it. But I believe that's going to be back on. But they were touring with Cheap Trick, and she opened up about her family, about writing music, living well in order to age well and the story behind Barracuda. And then she talked about finding love in her late 50s. And it's just an incredible story. And so give a listen and we will be back in February with new episodes. Take care. I'm Lauren and I'm Lisa, and we're flipping the script about growing older. Our guests have been influencers since before that was even a thing. Welcome to the anti Anti-Aging podcast. Welcome to age like a badass mother. Today's guest is the epitome of bad ass Nancy Wilson, guitarist, singer, songwriter and Rock and Roll Hall of Famer from the seminal rock band heart Magic Man, Barracuda, Crazy on You and Dog and Butterfly, among countless other hits. Heart Didn't Break Barriers. They brought to light that barriers even existed when young rock fans were falling in love with the Beatles, Nancy and her sister, and wanted to be the Beatles. That they ever taste, served them and allowed them to confidently forge forward with their love of making music without once questioning their place. It was only upon their journey that realized they were women rockers, and for decades have sidestepped the misogyny of the music biz, bucked the musical trends, and remained relevant and securely stationed in their place on the pantheon of rock legends. Well, I feel really good right now. Oh. Good. Good. We're off to a good start. There's 20 bucks. Then I won't tell anybody that the checks in the mouth. Yeah. Nancy recently released a beautiful solo album, You and Me, paying tribute to some of her favorite artists. Over the decades, she has partnered with and championed dozens of musicians and bands who have followed in her footsteps. Nancy is also a mom, a wife and preparing to embark on the 2024 Hart Tour, so we are thrilled she's made the time to chat with us today. Thank you for being here, Nancy. A very happy to be here and see you again and meet you and be part of this. The coolest title for any podcast I've ever heard of. Then thank you for the glowing introduction. I mean, as a matter of fact, doing this right now is really a good time to do it because just this morning, the deal is hereby signed by me and and both for the 2024 Hart World Tour. So. Oh, congrats. We're really doing. It's really happening. There's no question marks left to question. So we're, you know, is on the rails as of today. And I can talk freely about it. Oh, fantastic. Well, yeah. Well, we have so many things we want to talk to you about, and we're going to try to not keep you past the hour. But I'm going to start just because, you know, Lauren's like, how do you know Nancy? And so just before the pandemic, our friend Eric Tesla, who's this incredible guitar player, and Austin, amazing. My husband David and I were still living in Austin at the time. And my husband and I had a music studio, clubhouse Austin, that David had, cultivated over the years. So Nancy and Eric had met and connected at some private event. And so David and Eric's manager had made arrangements for Nancy and Eric to work on some songs together. So we brought Nat or David and, and, and Jan brought Nancy to Austin and, they picked a couple of really fantastic songs and work together in clubhouse Austin together. Yeah. And that was, and that was right before the big shut down to right before. In fact, David was just saying March 13th was when, like, stuff was supposed to be released at least. And that was the day of lockdown. That's right. Yeah. That's right. It was right. It. But yeah, my birthday is the 16th. And I remember, you know, the same thing. Like everything just stopped, including new music, including your life, any tour plans or any other. Well, you're not going to go into a recording studio for who knows how long or do any other music or any or walk out your front door for that matter, because at that point, way before there were vaccines, you know, made it was really scary. It was the scariest thing because you didn't know enough about anything to know if it was safe to breathe the air or touch a package that had been delivered to your house. Oh my gosh, people were washing their. Yeah, they were washing. They're sanitizing everything. Yeah. It's really nice to look back and be fully vaxxed on every for everything all the time like we used to as kids, when you're probably even more cognizant of that now because like when you go into venues, you're like in there with packed people's. Yeah, like kind of a big deal for you. Yeah. I read this rolling Stone review today, this really nice review of your new album, and it said, like, when the rest of us were staying home and trying to figure out how to put these like, oh, puzzles together, they're like, met Nancy, you made us all look lazy. She went and recorded an album. Yeah, well, I and I didn't know how. I've always been like in a professional studio with professional studio engineers and and producers like your husband, who was one of my favorites all time and, so my girlfriend helped me. She's sort of a tech head. Is that Susan's? No. It was, my friend Julie Bergman, actually. So she's she's a writer, and she's a, she's actually also a, a private investigator. She's. And a guitar player. So she figured she figured out how to use this four track little, interface with my good mikes that I already had sitting around in my good amps that I had sitting around in a room that at first, when we first moved here to Northern California, I finally got my very first ever studio space all my own, where I could leave shit out, keep let the mess be what it is. You know? I know where everything is because I left it there. You know nobody's going to mess with my mess. And, And so she figured out how to hook up the mikes, and we just made sure I was writing songs anyway, because I got really sick of the, you know, 2000 piece jigsaw puzzles really fast. The one I was doing was Ruth Bader Ginsburg. And, you know, it was a two many black pieces, you know, like a lot of black robe goes on for her. But then she that cut the color broke it up, though the color. I was like, I got the color. And then after that, the row. No, not the row. So you recorded in your house? Yeah, in her home studio. It's it's my new our new house that we just had moved into, left, left Topanga Canyon. Having worked in L.A. a long time for the Northern California coast, basically because I always wanted to live up these parts, you know, because there's enough Seattle about it. We're like, where I grew up, but not too much L.A. about it. So it's the perfect balance between the nice, rainy Seattle, you know, clean when you were born in San Francisco. That's true. Yes, I was, and so kind of came home in a way, so came home very much with where seasons happened and stuff like that. So I got, into a new house with a room in it, which was a, an apart, a two room apartment over a garage, not connected to the house with its own entrance and exit. So, right next to the house and easy to go up the stairs and just get lost, you know, and be let time just slip through. And, so I did a lot of singing and writing and, and, you know, zooming with various other musicians and meetings and, you know, trying to play songs with people remotely and write songs and write and, and record albums with files just flying everywhere and notes and then more, five more notes for the one, the bass part file, and then more notes to the bass player and then synced back another file to have okay, that I I'll go with that one. You know. So it was that's a crash course in technology. Yeah. The pandemic I really have like a phobia about trying to run digital gear. I don't know, I'm really not like the Chrome thing is like, oh, yeah, that's not a phone. Yeah. You're not alone. Yeah, yeah. Did you write your songs in your studio, or do you have a place where you like to write or. Yeah, well, I kind of write everywhere, but that's the place where you can get away and, like, try stuff out in a room, but with sing it into the room and go or not, maybe. And Sue NASA aforementioned, collaborator for since I was little, we wrote a lot of heart music together, within and we started collaborating for for my album. She is independently a songwriter and so is a friend of ours. Ben Smith, who used to play drums, was Hart for many, many. She was the longest ever member, of that lineup of Hart. So, Ben has some good writing chops, and I had some stuff, and we put stuff together from what they had and what I had and work together for. I love that track that you and she wrote together, that it's the title, the track, the title track. Yeah. Yeah, beautiful. She lost her mom before I lost our mom. And, she had written a song called, It was the same melody, basically the same kind of a song. It was called Follow Me. So she's kind of talking to the spirit, you know, of her mom in the song, and it. I wanted to write a song about my mom and who I feel the spirit in me all the time. And so we kind of collab, we kind of combined our two mom songs in a into that song. And, people, when they first heard the album, I put it on first because I figured, well, okay, if you're gonna if you're going to be like wildly, nakedly honest and emotionally honest with anything, you just start right there. Like first out of first Out of the gate is the song that makes you cry, you know? And a lot of people will. They were at home, shut down, they heard the song and they were like, oh, never to cry. As soon as I heard that song, it totally sucked me in. And, you know, I read your book a couple of years ago, right? And, I read a little bit more of it, preparing to, get together with you today and was reminded of what a force your mom was. Yeah. Military woman like. Yeah. But still, she was also like, I mean, I think I was like, wow, I wonder if that's where, like, and Nancy really got their sort of, independent spirit, like, creatively. And she was, she was even though she was a military mom, she was also like, just took the bull by the horns and did the thing. No, she was super badass. Woman. Yeah, I mean, to speaking of I mean, she had, she came from Oregon City, Oregon. Little, kind of a little town still. And but she was a product of a really, really, you know, not a, strict religious, but a Christian support group of a religious family. And her dad was the the Irish tenor in their local choir, the church that they would just walk over to, you know, in their neighborhood. And all of us grew up with aunts and uncles and cousins together and ukuleles and singing and hootenanny and harmonizing, like, like you guys with your clubhouse. You know, I just was like, oh, this is like my youth. I love the clubhouse vibe because it's, you know, anybody with a guitar or a piano or just a voice or, you know, or or any, any kind of ham bone thing they want to try to do is, right up my alley for sure. And my mom was a big hambone, and she, she would go to costume parties with a beer, you know, like a shadow and a hat and a cane and a man suit and be Charlie Chaplin, which was one of the. That was kind of her Beatles, you know, the comedy of Charlie Chaplin was her Beatles. I didn't think we'd get to it this soon, but I know that Lauren was wanting to ask you about an even more distant female relative. Oh, yes, I do want to hear that story. It's incredible. But I it just seems like your mom, like you mentioned, she was a force, but like, she really, I think, raised you and your sisters in a way that you didn't know, like, oh, we can't do certain things. These were girls or what? Didn't she giving you that kind of sense? She really did give us that. She married into the Marine Corps aristocracy. My grandpa on my dad's side was retired as a four star brigadier general in the Marine Corps. So it was the lineage that she married into with the white gloves and all of the cocktail dresses and, you know, officer's, cotillion as an officer, you know, clubs and stuff where the women would come once a week or whatever they did, you know, they would have their dinners, and she would she would actually make the cocktail dress herself for the occasion and wear the gloves, you know, and smoke. Smoke really elegantly, you know, when it was cool and but she had that amazing, flair about her. She, she had a light from that came out of her. And she was a social being. So, you know, she she would just, you know, love to talk to people and use her hands and talk about where they came from and their families history. And I loved reading about her evolution. I mean, yeah, like, throughout the book, like she evolved like she was then she was like reading Alan Watts it during the counterculture. Yes. Period. And like, I love the story about your parents, like trying pot and smoking weed with you guys. Yeah. She wasn't, like, stuck in this era. Like, she loves to. She really evolved all she heard. Her rock star was Judy Garland, too, who had a real, almost similar kismet, you know? Woman. The strength of, Judy Garland. And she liked a lot of strong women, singers, Barbra Streisand, you know, and and big personalities, you know, women that take up space. And, she turned into such a spiritualist. And in the human potential movement of the mid, late 60s that I'm okay, you're okay stuff. And Jonathan Livingston Seagull time. And, you know, Crosby, stills, Nash and young. So many hootenanny we were all singing teacher children together and stuff like it was by the fireplace, you know, with wine and cigarets and stuff like the time, you know, but, and and so she really was a force and she had a lot of, she had to develop a lot of confidence within the military life style, because she was really looked down upon as a bumpkin from Oregon City, Oregon. So she had to be stylish and she had to, you know, on the room, basically. So she did. And I think we got a lot of her, energy and her spiritual energy and sort of like the, the dad, I'm more like the mom in our family. Is there anything that you learned from watching her age. Well she aged gracefully. Well yeah we're talking about that too. Yeah there's that, there's age. There's a big scary topic of age. Yeah. I'm, I'm looking at 70 like this month and I'm like, really? Oh yeah. Well, it's not what it used to be. She had a joke about it. Like she had to joke around about, you know, she was a model in her early years and she'd be like, oh, well, there goes the old, you know, top of the end look, you know, they used to they're, you know, like my, my hand looks like the Ganges River connects there. Now, you know, she would have some joke about how different you look when you're older and just make light of it, you know, what are you going to do? You're going to stop or are you going to try to stop the river? You know, I mean, that's kind of why we wanted to do this, because it's like we can't no one can stop the aging process. It's about living well and like, you're, a huge representative of living well because you've been playing music and touring and out there doing this thing that you do for decades, you know, so and so. And I saw you in Minneapolis a few years ago, just before the pandemic, at a stadium show. Joan Jett and the Blackhearts were opening for heart, and you invited David and I to the show. And I was just like, and I've, I've seen you guys play before. And I said, wow, like, you were up there with your boots and your heavy electric guitar swirling around the stage singing. I'm like, how did she do that? And then now you're getting ready. You know, on the eve of a 70th birthday to go on tour and do what you've always done. Can you talk about that? Like what kinds of things that you do? The mindset, physical, whatever does you do that helps is it will is there's a lot more to it when you're older, obviously, to maintain, you know, your strength like I'm strengthening, you know, it's like every couple days I go and I strengthen with weights and I breathe and I stretch and I do, you know, plank and I do, I don't do a lot of, cardio type stuff. I, I like weight bearing and working with, and if you're at a hotel, a lot of the time you've got gravity. If, you know, what do you do? How do you use it? You know, or how to resist gravity by using gravity to your benefit. But, but, you know, I, I haven't been drinking it at all for a while now. Just by choice to feel better when I wake up. And, you know, I like a good party. I've had a lot of really good parties along the way, some of them with you guys. But, right now I feel like I'm okay. I'm in training. I've got in April. I'm going to be out for for like 20 shows and then a break and I'll be out for 20 shows and a break, you know, 20 or 30 shows, you know, at a time and a leg all the way into the middle of, well, all the way to the end of October when I leave in, in, April. So with all that adrenaline, when you're on the road, how do you wind down and go to sleep? Because the sleep is such like an important factor of. Yeah, it's really it's not that easy to get the right sleep, especially if you're not somebody just can sleep anywhere, which I've never been. Because you think and you worry and then you overthink. And over, you know, gig your worry habits. But, what are you what are you overthinking? Are you worried about your shows or your kids? Or what are you thinking about? There's always the politics. Like the and and the like the last seven months of getting this tour, planned and getting the deal done and getting all the details pounded out have been treacherous. It's been Chinese water torture stall after stall after stall and, you know, delay after delay and a lot of things hanging on, a lot of other things before it could be decided that whatever else happens after that, you know, all that kind of really stressful stuff. But, as of today, I took the longest, hardest shower I've taken in a long time after I signed that agreement. And it felt really good. You know, like pounding out those treacherous details. But it pays off in the end. And, you know, we get a lot of really professional people that are out there with you to do it with. So there's not somebody like, gumming up the works all the time. So usually there's somebody like that in, you know, in any given some ego tripper, some power hungry person who's in it just for the money or for themselves, so do you. There's always one of those in every bunch. So we've surmounted that part and we got past that perch so far today at least. And so that's a lot of the stuff that you kind of stress like I, I worry for Jeff, who really knows the business so well having been in movies and TV. Your husband. Yeah. My husband, Jeff, Jeff of the G. And, you know, and he's done a lot of business with a lot of entertainment people in various ways in the entertainment industry. He could protect me in that realm. And like that, that was that would be one of my biggest stresses of all is to see him suffer through all of being, you know, being, doing all of that stressful work on my behalf of million of. I'm sure it's important to him, though, that he's able to do that. So that frees you up to be, you know, focus on the creative stuff. Exactly. Well, I am definitely a creative for Andrew. I'm really pretty clueless about the reality of how it's really supposed to happen business wise. You know? Seems like you've done okay. Well, we've we've managed there's been some really good people along the way that helped us. Can you share some of like, how self-care has evolved over time? Yeah, like you mentioned like a hot shower and strength training. But even just like, yeah, mine's practices or or anything, anything that that helps to to keep you feeling vital and. Yeah. Well, you know, it's really kind of hard to try to quiet your mind some of the times. And I like to do yoga, and I like to lie on the floor and sink into the earth kind of stuff. Shavasana. Yeah. Shavasana. Exactly that. And just kind of lose your selfhood for a while. And just try to feel like you're an animal on the planet, you know, that's breathing without all the other stuff to worry about. Yeah, well, we often forget. We breathe. I mean, we take that for granted. Don't forget to breathe. Yeah. Just even acting with that. There's this. There's a song I still want to write called Breathing Lessons. You know, it's a it's a good title, but, but it's it's, you know, it's it's about what you put in your mouth. It's about what you drink and eat. I haven't had red meat for a long time, so it really helps to be to feel lighter and to eat really clean food, you know, healthy food, and sometimes splurge, you know, like, okay, I'm going to have that job with though. And so, you know, I'll have the, you know, the lava cake. Well, we interview a lot of lifestyle doctors and everything you're describing is what they recommend because, well, that's good. It's not your it's not what you do. It's not the, occasional thing that's going to impact you. It's how your what your daily habits are. Yeah. And also the strength training they said to as we get older. Yeah. The best way to keep strong muscle mass isn't is more about using our muscles than it is even what we're eating, like our protein needs actually don't. And yes, it's more about keeping our muscles strong. So. Right. And when you're building your muscle, you do more, you do more protein. You know, I drink, I boil water and I drink bone broth powder with collagen powder in it, whisk it up, and I try to drink that every day. Sounds yucky. It's kind of yucky. But you you get the chicken, the chicken broth and the unflavored, collagen powder. Unflavored. You still eat nuts? I still like nuts. Yeah. Because, if they have chocolate on them. Oh, yeah. Definitely. Now, who was it, doctor? Well, we just interviewed Doctor Michael Greger, who has a book, How Not to Age. And, you know, he he talks about the importance of nuts. And I and the reason I'm asking, it's kind of funny and you probably are like, this was a blip on your radar, but, when we flew to LA to meet you and you guys were doing work and Alan Marino studio, I was like, oh, yeah, how can I support? How can I even help this endeavor? And I'm like, I know I'll do craft services. So they gave me a list of food for you, and I ran to the store, and I thought I ticked everything off, and I came back and you're like, do you have any nuts? And I'm like, oh my God, it's nuts. And I ran back to the store and got the nuts, but I was like, oh, that's so cookie. It's nuts. They're so good for you. Went back to the store again, but I was like, I had this simple task and I failed. I'm like, how did I get the one thing she was, I forgot the just, oh my God, did you cook Lisa guy? No, I don't think I did. There wasn't a lot of time because they were working. Yeah. You know. Yeah. So Nancy, do you like to cook? I really like to cook. I, I do cook, I cook most every night when of home. It's kind of therapeutic for me to cook because I'm pretty good at it at this point. I used to go on recipes and learn recipes and then, you know, but I have I have no, I have greatest hits, things I could just remember to do. You know, I have I have written a few cookbooks just for the family over the years for Christmas, you know, like, here's my famous for my world famous, you know, for chicken. Here's my world famous, Caesar salad, you know, do you, do you get, like, a personal trainer or anything? Yeah, I just did hire a personal trainer for the first time. I mean, I've trained a lot with, without it, specifically personal trainer. But, you know, when you're traveling, like, I'm planning to pack one of my two wardrobe cases for the road with workout stuff like the, that's the the yoga mats that are larger. The, the, the massage chair for the, the actual makeup dressing room area. So the body worker can come and just do your neck and shoulders and arms and your hands, you know, because my hands need a lot of help. I mean, they're doing fine, but that's a that's going to be a lot of work for my hands. If you're playing guitar or especially acoustic guitar and I don't use light strings either. So it's like, whoa. So I want to bring the conversation back to, our topic of being, you know, being aging like a badass is, you've, you know, you've were married before and you have two grown children. Yeah. And you're now remarried and you both married with two grandchildren, and you're still friends with your ex. And so I guess what I'm curious about is, like, you know, how have you managed your evolved relationships over time from when you were younger? And as you get older, you know, have things changed for you? Yeah. I mean, there's eras in your life, you know, like when you when I think of my 20s, I feel like that was a whole different person then, you know, and I connect the, the connection is all, all the way still there, especially creatively to my songwriter self, my younger songwriter self, because that's the same person today. But, the things outside of the creative life that you actually endure throughout your life, like the relationships and the loss and, you know, the divorce and losing your parents and having a child or two and, you know, worrying for their safety when they're every age from then, from there forward for the rest of your life and their well-being. And so, I think every lifetime is full of lifetimes. There's many lifetimes in each lifetime. Hey, man, I think if if you can maintain a kind of a flexibility in your soul, I and I believe in soul, I know it's real. Then you can grow with all of the pain and the hurt and the loss and the change that you have to get through. So I think it's it's all food for your soul to get older, wiser and stronger. So like, you're using those lessons to grow rather than, like clinging to mistakes, right? Rather than you kicking yourself for being a fool or not knowing better, or why did I ever marry that? What or why did I let myself lose that relationship? Was it my fault? All that stuff that usually, like with a divorce, you know, I mean, I was I cried every day for a couple of years over that. My first loss of, of a of a marriage because we had kids. I saw how it worked on them, how hard it was for them, and I thought it could be fixed and it wasn't really fixable. So I hung on too long, you know, all that stuff. And but then you come. There was one day I came out the other end feeling like I could let go. Okay. It was like two years, but I could let go of that. And and then I can even think of allowing myself to feel like I might have another chance at another relationship even, which is really doubly, difficult for somebody like me. When I was 58 is when, mutual friends kind of said, hey, you should go to dinner with that Jeff Bywater, you know, because he's like the, the, the, the best in the business is how it was watching me. And, it's like, okay, well, you should. So my manager at the time, Carol Peters, and she says, you should go out with him. And I said, I can't date, I can't go on a date. I'm 56. I've been married for 23 years, whatever it was. And she's like, yes, you can. And so I'll go with you. And so I had my first date with she went on the date with the manager because I was so scared. I was so fucking scared to be vulnerable and to risk it, you know. Did you hit it right off with Jeff? Yeah. I had actually had met him at a meeting before with Carol. Because I was trying to get pregnant for a long time doing in vitro stuff. And we had a meeting about getting music into television because I was at home instead of on the road. So we really we hit it off. So I kind of remembered him, and I remembered he was cute and really nice. Funny and a home. Like a real a dad, a cool dad, you know, talked about kids and dogs, you know? So, so I kind of I was just able to barely trust the situation enough to go out with my manager to dinner. And the second date was with my lawyer. Oh, my gosh. And she, had a Jeff. How did Jeff feel about that? How did you feel about you turning up with your lawyer? Well, he knew he knew my lawyer, too, because he actually worked with my lawyer as well. And it was kind of like the divorce was finalizing and it was part of the conversation. It was not very comfortable. But, you know, we always joke about that now because I was like, we went to a play or movie with them, and I was after dinner. I was so afraid he was going to do the, you know, the try to touch me or something, sneak his arm around you. I must be old fashioned, but, yeah, I was just scared as shit to go on a date, you know? And, yeah, he's a really. He's beautiful, man. It turns out, like, 12 years later, you know, he protects me with his life and all of his life skills, and you know, I don't know if the hard tour would have happened without him, actually, Oh, we're grateful for that. Yeah, because we're good. Oh, very happy to know that heart is still touring. You know, one of the things that I really admire about you is that you've got these lifelong friendships like Sue, nice and killing, like Kelly, Kelly, Curtis, you were kids, and I know, and I. And you had such like, a strong family growing up. You know, tell Hannah Dustin's story now, okay? This is an incredible story because, I mean, this is in your DNA. Yeah. There was an ex woman in my in my history. She was one of the first ex women, in the dust in line of my mother's side of the family. And she came from Haverhill, Massachusetts, at a very in the 1800s. And it was the time where, Native Americans were rebelling against the settlers that were coming into their land. And, so there was a raid on the, her settler settlement and her family, right after she had had a baby. Momma's after hours after her baby, she had a child. The Indians raided their farm, took the baby, smashed its head against the tree, killed a bunch of people and took them hostage. So took her hostage and watched them for miles and miles and miles up towards French Canada, Arcadia or Accardi area. And, she found a way, well, being tied up to a tree to get loose and decided to get her people loose and escaped with them in the dead of night while the Native Americans were asleep. And, she did. And as they were, as they were leaving the forest, she would. Wait a minute. If I go back to, you know, the the my town near Washington, DC, I need proof that I had to have done this. So she went back and got a tomahawk, scalped some Indians took their scalps into the river on one of their canoes and paddled up to the Washington, DC area, presented the scalps to the just new government that was forming at the time in in the capital, and got a monument, the first monument ever erected to a woman, built in Haverhill, Massachusetts. She holds a tomahawk. And I went back there years ago, took picture there for the book because it was my guitar in hand, like a tomahawk. You know, you're an ax woman. Yeah. I mean, regardless of the context today under which it might be viewed, which is still controversial, is still controversial because she was viewed, down the nose of the higher, you know, the, the male hierarchy of the day because she acted out. So there's all this history about her in the books about her that put a little black cat picture, like she was a witch because she acted out, because she was a powerful woman. She killed people. She was powerful. So it's a it's a real mixed message whether you want to know or a man. There would be no black cats in the pictures. Yeah, right. It would just they would be a halo. It's sort of a black guy, right? Right. So like there's, like in your book, you talk about like there's, like your mom came up against a women don't do that. And came up against women. Don't do that. But you all did that anyway. Yeah. She also had Hannah Dustin's DNA. Speaking of all the misogyny and everything, but one of the things I loved reading in the book, Kicking and dreaming, was that, you know, Barracuda is my favorite heart song. And I didn't know what it was about. I always assumed it was about a man, which it is. But can you tell that story? Because at that, it's a really pretty great story. We were really fresh faced from Seattle Kids with a new album, the first album, and like at some album release party or some party with a bunch of these slime balls and they're satin jackets, you know, the record industry guys, they were really lucky they were. Even back then, it seemed a lot more like that. That was the era of it. If there's a lot of cocaine in that time. So it was all ego and slime balls like that. It was it was less so. Mind expanded as we'd come out of the late 60s with our pot and our LSD. You know, it was all this weird sort of slimeball stuff going on. So the guy went over to an and said, you know, how's your lover? And she's like, yeah, Mike, he's right over there. He's great. What, what? And because. No, I mean, your sister lover, it was like, we're not lovers, we're sisters, you know. But because we had bare shoulders on the cover, I don't know, but there was something that, he wanted and it sort of came, and he had already kind of planted the salacious idea in the press. And so it was like it was only their first time, you know, I don't know, it was it was just we were so offended because we were musicians. We were creative people trying to be like the Beatles or be the Beatles as much as we could be the Beatles. And it was so like it was such a belittling insult that we would be slammed balls and sexy slime balls and try to try to get attention that way, you know, that we were we were not credible as as artists. So we had our interest. Artistic integrity was very ruffled at the time. And, you know, we kind of got more used to it later. But we were so offended and that's when and went and wrote the lyrics to Barracuda when I was growing up. Of course, one of my favorite rock bands was LED Zeppelin. I had, you know, they, I just they were it for me. I saw them at Madison Square Garden in 77. Yeah. And then I and then this is a whole other conversation. But then when heart when I got my first heart album, I was like, oh my God. Like it was like mind blown. But, but one of the things that, I was thinking about is that, like back when you guys were starting, there was a moment where, like, Zeppelin walked into a club where you guys were playing stairway to Heaven. But then like, fast forward decades later. Yeah. And you guys are performing for them at the Kennedy Center Honors. Yeah. And I want to tell you something. I watched that again today because I had such a good time, I was weep oh my God, I was I was like, what's wrong? Like I was seriously, I'm not making that. I was David saw me on the couch. I'm like, I don't know what's wrong with me. It was just like, so moving. It's quite a moment, is quite a moment. You know, not to mention the fact that we were huge Zeppelin fanatics the entire time and channeling Page and Plant on our own stages, as well as trying to write songs like them and coming off like them and looking kind of like them, you know, we we got her perms and stuff and, but having of Jason Bonham that day on the drums, who was the son obviously of John Bonham, their original drummer, who died, with a bowler, you know, like he, like John would wear. Yeah. Doing that song that they did with him and then all of the reveals and reveals and reveals opening out to the back of the building with might as well been a pipe organ, too, you know, like it was everything. And yeah, it was it was so. Well, crafted that the way that the, that they basically directed that it it was the finest. It was the finest. One of the finest moments I can remember being part of. Thank God I didn't screw it up. Were you nervous? Yes, we were, you know, because, like. Because what I was thinking too, I like for it starts with just you and and on the stage. Yeah. I just play the guitar part by myself, like, were you and you were playing the guitar by myself. Just no pressure. And I was like, oh my God. She must have been terrified. Like, totally. Because we had one rehearsal the day before because it was December and the rehearsal, the one rehearsal we had, it was the day before, and we had we were on the road so we didn't get more than one. And we got into town. We went straight to the rehearsal space. Everybody doing the show a work in the show, we're all volunteers. It's a benefit show to, you know, to benefit the arts. So standing outside waiting for a ride, my hands froze because it was December in DC and and so I went straight into a rehearsal room to try to play, you know, stairway to Heaven without warming up at all. And, having practiced at all, I knew I remembered it, but I forgot kind of. There's just all just work in. I'll play it. But my hands were frozen. I sort of remembered it, but not exactly remembered it. So? So the whole band and choir were there, watching me just blow it with these frozen fingers. As the guy said, the musical, the guitar guy goes, look, I could shadow you. I can play it with you. It's like, no, no, no, no, my hands are just frozen right now. I could play this, I could do this. So I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. So, you know, I had to I had to do it on my own by myself. That when the time came the next night. So you were still dealing with that shit because he wouldn't have done that if you were girl. Well, I mean, it was nice of him to offer because they didn't know if I could do it or not. He knows. He knows who you are. He knows you can play that. You know. Who knows at my age how I could do like, something like that anymore, you know. I don't know, but it was a generous offer. But I turned it down. Diplomatically. Well, you know who are some of the people who you get starstruck by? I know you, you're in love with the Beatles. Yeah, but like, who? Who are some of the people that you get starstruck? Well, Jimmy Page, Robert Plant, Paul McCartney, you know, I get starstruck by Elton John, by Bernie Taupin. I just finished his book, which is amazing, because of the creative collaboration there. And those songs are so, are so deathless. Songs like Daniel and, Someone Saved My Life and so many great songs and, so yeah, those are the I mean, I know, I know these guys and I've been in rooms with them, but I can't hardly breathe, you know, and so I'm in the room with them is Neil Young is another one. Oh yeah. You've named all just like. Oh, like my favorite and Lauren's favorite. Sounds like your record collection at the at the club. Yeah, totally. Joni Mitchell. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Yeah yeah, yeah. Joni. Yeah. Well, okay, so I know we don't want to keep you too long. I know we got started a few minutes late, so. Yeah, you know, we were talking and like, we haven't really been asking a lot of standard questions, but I was thinking a good question to ask you like knowing everything, you know now, what advice would you give your younger self? I always like that question. Because I've even as my younger self, even as a kid, younger self, I sort of my older self a lot like I looked at older people and I thought, what they must know that I don't know yet. And so I had a respect for my older self already as a younger self going forward, you know, towards it. And so like so I couldn't tell myself then, but now I can tell myself, my younger self to, be super careful with imbibing, you know, altering your state of mind. Especially after the 80s. Yeah. No. And, you know, even in the 60s and 70s, we dabbled with mind altering stuff. But, it was all very innocent, sort of. In the day with the Beatles at the helm, you know, and the Moody Blues were there for you if you were tripping, you know, if you were in, if you were flying. So now it's legal. Unregulated. Yeah. Microdosing. You could micro medical marijuana. Exactly. So I mean, that's the better side of the story if you're gonna. Yeah. If you're going to do any altering at all. I think that that's the way to you. Don't tell your younger self to go. What's the best piece of advice you've ever received? I think it's well, I think you have to tell yourself your best advice a lot of times. What are your survival skills? Look, let me take some of my survival skills. What are the things that I've kept in my pocket? You know, with me in. In my chest, you know, in my heart, in my soul. And I think one of the best tools is humor. Because. Because you can't laugh everything off, but. And you can, oftentimes you find yourself trying to make light of some really heavy shit, but, but then when you can look back in level and stuff, you get past it, you get a perspective on it and it helps you. But deal, it helps you recover. And I think, you know, when you see great stories about people that have come through really disastrous life experiences, a lot of it is wars and shit. You know, they get through it with songs and with stories and laughter and, you know, telling and talking with each other, telling stories, cautionary tales, you know, and, and songs. A lot of songs, you know, you are like, seem like you were kind of like an old soul, but a lot of, like, what you're saying seems like wisdom that comes with being older, which is really learning to listen to yourself and to take things so seriously and not hanging on to things. Would you say that it's more so now, or have you always been like that? Oh, I always considered myself a wise old owl when I was even little. Like I always had the feeling that I'd been around before. Some people, like my two sons, are twins, but they're paternal. They're not identical. And one of them is a really old soul, and one of them is a younger soul, and one of them's really interior. One of it was more, you know, outgoing. One of my sons just, just did the the ceremony for a wedding I attended on over the weekend. He was the minister. So, you know, I was really I was. Who was that? Jeff's daughter. No. Jeff's daughter? Yes. Got married to her girlfriend, actually. Oh, my gosh, that is beautiful. So it's only two other families? Yeah. Oh, my gosh, our son, our two did the ceremony. Yes. And my son did the ceremony for his kind of adopted bigger sister Julia, who got married to her girlfriend who she's loved for most of her life since they were teenagers together. But they both had to kind of figure it out for a long time before they decided to be a couple. But you know, you love. We love you and I. I'm all for love. Men. What the world needs to say. Yes. Yeah. Let's copyright oops. I love that, and I love what you're saying about, you know, souls and old souls and believing you've been here. Yeah. I always, I don't know if I've told this story on our podcast before, but when I met my husband, I was 15 years old. He was 20 at the time, and I went to interview. He was my boss at my first job. And I went walked into this interview, and when I saw him, it was like I was in a tunnel because I was like, I feel like I have known him in a million lifetimes. That's so cool. It was the weirdest thing. And I was like, I yeah, I believe it. Before I said one word to him and I was like, I'm marrying him. I loved him, and I felt that way about, you know, another friend of mine. But that's how I was like, I know I've been here. I yeah, that's how I felt when I knew that I loved Jeff was like, this was this was written in the stars. You know, this is really meant to be. This was preordained. And I, the image of you thinking about your older self and what you don't know, because most of us were like, we know everything. Like I my teenager, you know most. But you were like thinking it was like 12. And I was thinking, why when I'm, I was thinking it like when I turn 30, I'm going to smile at myself as a 30 year old right now. So I went and then when I turned 30, I remembered it and I smiled at my 12 year old self. Just like for the goof of it. But it's like cool. Like I see it. There's a book in your future. Maybe I can make some coin. You know? Yeah. No, thanks. Thanks. That's what I mean. Like so much that I've read about you and so much I know from talking to you, I'm like, you know, that's. Well, someone who's, like, had that sort of inner. Yeah. For a very long time. Well, that's being a songwriter I think, too, you know, and the love of great songs and music and doing music, being around music, you know, cherishing the great music we have. And we're lucky to have, like the songs I did with Eric Tessler to go back full circle, like we worked on at the club house. That was so much fun to do. And right now I've got a couple extra songs kind of loosely done that I want to put. Like, I'm trying to figure out a way to, offer them up is at my merch booth at the On the Heart tour, like, so I'll talk to David about that too. But maybe putting some of the songs I did with Eric offering them up as merchandise on the tour. On the hard tour, are you coming through Austin on your tour? Because I really want to see you. Does Austin have electricity? Yeah. So you water and water. Yeah, they, they have a washer dryer at the at the arena still up. They're still on the grid. They're still in Madrid. Oh cool. Thank you. Nancy. Yeah. Nancy, this is such a pleasure to talk with you. You two. Absolutely. Really fun. I, I could talk about myself for hours.