Age Like a Badass Mother

Jane & Ann Esselstyn - Let's Talk About Sex and Aging

February 07, 2024 • Lisa Rice & Lauren Bernick • Season 1 • Episode 1

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How many peri, meno, and post-menopausal women does it take to discover the clitoris in all its glory? Turns out four multigenerational badasses can answer the query with seriousness and hilarity!

https://janeesselstyn.com
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Be A Plant-Based Woman Warrior: Live Fierce, Stay Bold, Eat Delicious: A Cookbook by Jane Esselstyn and Ann Crile Esselstyn
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Age Like a Badass Mother is produced by David Rice for Storybeat Media.

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Jane:

I don't think about age. We're not aging like badasses. We're living like badasses. I love it. I'm Lauren and I'm Lisa, and

Lauren:

we're flipping the script about growing older.

Lisa:

Our guests have been influencers since before that was even a thing. Welcome to the anti anti aging podcast.

Lauren:

Welcome to age like a badass mother. You may be familiar with our two amazingly warm and energetic guests today. Jane and Anne Esselstyn. Jane is a nurse, researcher, mother, and teacher who champions women, family, and community. She created the recipe section of the New York Times number one bestseller, Plant Strong, and Engine 2 Seven Day Rescue by her brother, Rip Esselstyn. You have to Google Jane Esselstyn, fat causes type 2 diabetes. You will finally understand what type 2 diabetes is. Anne Esselstyn, mother of Jane, is a force. You may have seen the video of Anne schlepping a car tire tied around her waist up and down her street. Anne is the author of the recipe section of her husband Dr. Caldwell Esselstyn's best selling book, Prevent Reverse Heart Disease. She counsels patients along with her husband, helping them to reverse heart disease with plants. This dynamic mother daughter duo host the wildly popular YouTube channel where they cook up delicious plant based meals. and hilarity. You may also know them from their cookbook, Be a Plant Based Woman Warrior. Jane and Ann, say it with me. Live fierce. Stay bold. Eat delicious.

Jane:

Yes. You did a good job. You put your own spin on that, which was nice.

Ann:

It was good. But I just said to you. I am way more interested in learning about each of you than to talk at all about us. Oh my gosh. Boring compared to you two. If

Lisa:

there's ever an example of aging like a badass mother, it's the two of you. Your whole family, really, but the two of you as women and inspirations to us, so we want your secrets. Can you say

Lauren:

how old you are, both of you?

Jane:

I'm 58, and my mom is 30 years older than I

Ann:

am. 88.

Lauren:

Yeah, 88. Amazing. And I'm 55 and Lisa's 60. So Damon and Lisa and I are all close. And then you are showing us, Ann, what, what we can be. Yeah, I mean, it's

Lisa:

obvious to me, like, plant based is a huge part of of your health and vitality. But like, I also see because I've been following you both for a long time. And you've got humor, and your physical activity, like you're, you know, pulling the tires and moving your bodies. And then also what I what I really admire so much too, which is something that a lot a lot of us miss out on is that your your family is very,

Jane:

very close. It's true. I feel like that is a special spice. It's a special Uh, ingredient that not every family, I think, would function well if they were all together. We crazily won the lottery that I, I was saying the other day that I have three brothers and myself, so there's four of us kids. And we all are, are married and have children. And we oddly want to get together all the time. And we're a wobbly big group of 20. Grandchildren are pairing up with, you know, partners and things, so it's getting a little wobbly, a little bigger, and it's strong and sustainable and supportive. So many other things just fall in place. How lucky to have that. For people

Lauren:

who are still raising children who are listening to this, what do you have, like, what kind of advice do you have about raising children and keeping them cohesive and like a unit like that? You know, I must say,

Ann:

all my life, the one thing that I hoped would happen with our children, that they would be connected to each other always as they were, you know, kind of getting out of college. And I, I felt that was so important. And, and I think that they have done a good job of that.

Jane:

I first learned

Lisa:

about you guys kind of back in 2009 when some friends of mine hosted a vegan potluck and they made the lasagna from the Engine 2 diet

Jane:

and That's my husband's recipe. My

Ann:

husband's recipe. Rip Gibbs Brian credit always. I lived

Lisa:

in Austin. So, you know, that's when I first, you know, heard about it and I thought I was very interested. And then I lived in Rip's neighborhood and went to his potluck sometimes. But I'm curious though, because I Don't know a lot about your, your other children. So where did it start? Did it start with Essie?

Jane:

Yes,

Ann:

the amazing thing is that in 1983 ish, Essie just had to, he was a general surgeon And he didn't feel that he was making any difference for a breast cancer coming through and anyway, he's really a carpenter just like He looked a little global research saw that you know, yeah, I mean people didn't have breast can't I mean So

Jane:

Abidjan, it was pretty clear that it was only

Ann:

in certain. So what he did is he started we started then You know, we had always been a close family. Everybody went off to college. But it has stuck. It has stuck. And I cannot tell you that we have our four children are all, uh, I mean, passionately, passionately planning. Our daughter in law, who is an OB, She is crazily that way. I mean, all 10 of our grandchildren are also plant based. I mean, in here, in this book, when I went and asked all of them about being plant based, my favorite quote was from the then seven year old. If you eat meat, you die. End

Lisa:

of

Lauren:

conversation. And I've told you both this before, but I have reversed my heart disease. I have proof from the Cleveland Heart Lab panel. My cholesterol is still high. My LPA is still high. But I have no signs of disease in my body anymore. And I got your first cookbook, Preventing Reverse Heart Disease, and every day I just opened it up and I cooked something out of it until I knew what I was doing. And now I have the new cookbook, of course, Be a Plant Based Woman Warrior, and, you know, I, I cook, I think about you two every day, because, and your whole family, because you literally all saved my life, so. I thank you for that. You know what? And

Jane:

yeah, that's, that's kind of you say like what you did, but that book is out there and anybody can read it. So only those who implement it and, and comply results, which is what you've done. So it's such an interesting spinning the locus of control out of the doctor's office and medication and scans and surgeries and interventions and. All that stuff to like, it's all on you. You did it. Thank

Ann:

you. I'm realizing, and more and more now, you know, originally maybe I had the feeling If you did it, then you would be fine and you could just eat anything. I mean, people with heart disease particularly can't stray. They have to stay and they have to stay pretty tight to reverse heart disease. You know, when

Jane:

I was working at

Lisa:

the Health Foods Medical Wellness Center, we had those people like Lauren who went all in, and thanks to both of you and especially Jane, your videos. They made my job easier because I was able to use those tools to educate for them to understand like Lauren said in the intro your video about type 2 diabetes and show my my cellular lipids and the truck and everything that really spoke to people so I have to thank you for that but there were As many, if not more, patients in the clinic who we worked with who really, really struggled. But I have to say, and you know, so it goes beyond just having the tools, right? You have to use the tool. But what I love about what you guys do is you make it

Jane:

so accessible.

Lisa:

Your cooking videos, your recipes. The benefit

Jane:

is that we're not trained chefs. We're just household hacks making it happen. And we're not like all of us.

Ann:

The other yesterday, last weekend, Jane has these small groups out

Jane:

at a lot of small live events. It's very food focused.

Ann:

And she, she pulled out of the oven some brussels, I mean, her brussels sprouts are

Jane:

awesome. I had to prepare 30 recipes for 36 people, overnight.

Ann:

It was crazy. Oh my gosh. It was nuts. And so she pulled out this, these brussels sprouts, which I really couldn't even tell what they were. And she said, taste it. And I tasted it. And her was this whole audience.

Jane:

And my mom's like. But you know what? You know what? People

Ann:

loved them. Because they have those expectations. We were

Jane:

like, this is awful, this is awful, but like I wanted to show you that, you know, we usually everything's so perfect in our kitchen. Right. So, I put them out there. Gone. Everyone's like, these are delicious. I'm gonna crack her. And one of my staff members, who works all the time with us, she was like, Jane, I've made every recipe in the book. She was one of the recipe testers. She's like, don't remember this one. I'm like, over marinate the sweet and savory. Brussels sprouts.

Lauren:

You know what? But that's the thing. You can't make a mistake when you're cooking because you can usually correct it or whatever or people will

Ann:

just Choke it down. No, but don't you find that when you, when you cooked it, you don't mind eating it because you know what's in it and you're okay. Yeah. But to

Lisa:

Jane's, to Jane's point though, it's not like you're like, you know, Julia Child in there with all the French techniques. You're like, this is, get some balsamic vinegar, get a, you know, a roasting pan with some parchment paper. Like, you know, you're making it so easy for the rest of

Jane:

us. And it wasn't even on the list, like, this is a bonus recipe and it's horrible. I'm

Ann:

so sorry. You know, somebody should hire Jane to be a taste taster and a smeller.

Jane:

My nose can wake me up at night. Yes.

Lauren:

That's how I knew I was pregnant. Like I couldn't stand the smell of my lipstick all three times. I was like, oh, it's

Lisa:

My favorite food, yeah, garlic. I love garlic. But when I was pregnant, I was like,

Jane:

ugh. Yeah. Raw onion. Oh my god, isn't that amazing? I'm getting better. I don't, I don't love. You don't love raw onions? I, I don't love raw onions, but I, I mean, I eat them, I put them in salads and everything, but I just, yeah. I like a raw onion in a sandwich. I

Ann:

have to tell you what I was passionate about

Lauren:

eating

Jane:

58 years ago, or

Ann:

50, who was it with? 56. Liver. I could not get enough liver.

Lauren:

That's my mother's favorite. My mother, if it's disgusting, my mother wants to eat

Ann:

it. And she loved

Jane:

them. Does your mother eat tongue? Yes.

Lauren:

They gave it to me when I was a kid, I was like six years old, you know, they got it from the Jewish deli down the street and I was eating it and I was like, Grandma, why does this tongue look like a tongue? Is that why they call it tongue? She's like, just eat it. I'll tell you later. I was like, Hmm, no, oh

Jane:

man. My

Lauren:

mother was from the South

Lisa:

and my father was from the Philippines, so we had everything from sweetbreads to pig's ears to tripe around our house. It was gross. When my mom cooked tripe, I had to leave the house. Disgusting. That's

Lauren:

disgusting.

Lisa:

Oh my gosh. Cause, cause Ann, you really didn't, I mean, you were older, obviously, when you dove into the whole plant

Jane:

based style. You know,

Ann:

when we started doing that. We were in Cleveland. Now, MacDougall on the West Coast had, was doing something, but you know, the West Coast was far away. So we just figured it out. I mean, that's what we did. And you know, I would, I made a lot of things that weren't very good, but we ate them because we did. And just I just learned. But you

Jane:

stuck with it because?

Ann:

You know, in Cleveland, I was teaching then sixth grade English, and I did a lot of work with vocab, and I remember back then, vocab words that nobody knew were vegan and vegetarian. I mean, the world has certainly

Jane:

changed. So Lisa, I think what you're getting at is, is, is kind of like this, the three reasons why I wanted to push to write this book. The first was. This is a tip of the hat to my mom because she did this, like she just said, in the 80s, pre internet, no whole food market. Cleveland, Ohio, where like the sexiest spice is garlic soap. And did it when my dad said, Hey, pivot. And she was like, okay, with four kids. I mean, talk about being out there over your skis and your neighbors thinking that you're Something's wrong. She just did it and against so many odds. Second is because I feel like women tend to have most of the mental labor around food. What should we grow? What should we harvest? Mm-Hmm., what should we put in the cart? What should we put away in the cupboard? What shelf, fridge? How do we prepare it? How and serve it? We have this mental labor around that. No wonder we're like, let's go out to eat. Yes. It's just this release valve for all that. But, I mean,

Ann:

when people ask us, what is a good restaurant in Cleveland, we don't go. We're

Jane:

like, go get sushi, but brown rice nori rolls, that's our eating out. Well, I have very strong feelings around

Lisa:

when children start school, just like they have to learn how to read and write and math, they should be learning to cook. Because I think part of the problem is that we don't, we're not raised that way, right? We get, we're intimidated and scared of the

Ann:

kitchen. I had hallmark. at school, and what I only remember learning how to cook was

Jane:

fudge. Girls did home ec and boys did wood shop or metal shop, right? Well, that was such good fudge. I want to talk about gender in a minute. So, anyway, so I, the, so I feel like since the majority of women who are doing the cooking and most of the mental labor around food for their families and communities and themselves, if we could just have people eat a few more plants, a little more plants, add more plants, because it doesn't look like the other stuff, we can turn, and our health outcomes will also take that turn. That's just. My hope. Yeah. And the third reason is just that I, as a, I have three brothers and we all were, you know, athletes growing up. Like I was in Olympic trials when I was 14 and swimming and I got a scholarship to go to Michigan, University of Michigan and I, you know, making NCAAs and then I, my suit doesn't really fit right and I'm, you know, I have to eat. I have to lift. I have to train. I have to go to school. I have to train again. I have to eat again. I had, it was just, it's just, you can't get off that treadmill or you end up, you know, if you don't make the NCAAs, like why? Anyway. I, I couldn't stand what was happening with my brain like, get out of my head, all I have are the brothers, I don't get this food thing. And I knew my brothers, who are training at their universities and colleges, didn't spend even an iota of a second thinking about food, their body, their identity, their performance, and they'll show up as who they feel they are from head to toe. around food. And I, but then, right then, somehow, my parents called in and said, hey, we're gonna start eating. We're not eating any meat or dairy or oil or fat, salt, sugar, or not. And I'm like, what? That's in 18, it was 1884, actually, when they called. They just had started in the early 80s. And anyway, it, it took a while to harmonize and get it right. Like, I thought, oh, I'll just eat a dozen bagels and Nutella. It took a while to not have that food

Lauren:

head. That was one of the biggest gifts that eating this way gave to me because, you know, I always struggled with some vanity pounds and I lost 20 pounds doing this. I've kept it off. I don't think about it anymore. And it's been eight, eight and a half years. And I can't tell you what a gift that is. You know, you were talking a little bit about how you felt about your body as a teenager. How has that evolved over the years? How do you feel about your bodies

Ann:

now? When I'm doing a plow, yoga, and I see my legs over my head and I think, oh, did those legs

Lauren:

belong?

Ann:

All I can see is skin that's all, you know, wrinkled and it doesn't look the same as when your legs are straight. Yeah, right.

Lauren:

I get that because I'm getting crepey and you know, but I have to be like, I have to talk myself down and I really Always, and in yoga especially, I always say I'm grateful for my radiantly healthy beautiful body with all the things because thank God I have those two legs and that would be worse. I don't want to learn that lesson, you know, I want to be. Like, thank God I have these, like, but I get it. It's hard. You want your skin to stay on your everything, bones, and I was

Lisa:

just, as I'm listening, thinking

Jane:

about, you know, we do have this pressure as women,

Lisa:

um, way more than men. I mean, the images come at us every day in every way. And one of the thing, reasons why Lauren and I started this podcast is because there's like such age discrimination against women. And for me, it's really powerful when women like you can be like, you're living vibrantly because you've made these choices that you don't even have to think about. You eat plant based, right? It's just become part of your lifestyle. I think those are some of the things like we want to know from you guys.

Jane:

Well, to tell you the truth, I had said, Mommy, will you come over earlier? I want to, I want to look over the information about. Um, these women and their podcasts and I love, I love their, I love their sort of moxie they're coming in with and the energy around it and, um, And I said

Ann:

to the plane, I've already looked the lot.

Jane:

And I was like, I want to review it again. And I'm sitting here eating my cereal that she has every day. That's made her be just like, she's like a bundle of stem cells. She's just oats and greens and mushrooms and nutritional yeast and all these spices and turmeric artichoke and everything your body wants to be supple and delicious all day. And so I'm eating the cereal and I was like, you know what? I really am excited to talk to these women and I'm excited about their podcast. And I love the moxie energy behind it. The one thing I have a problem with is I don't think about or wear or use the word age. We're not aging like badasses. We're living like badasses. She's never ever worn makeup. I don't own makeup. My kids have had for Halloween. Look, we're, come here. This is what we look like. You are

Lisa:

gorgeous. Look at your skin. It's

Jane:

incredible. You both are. No, I'm saying is like, because this is all we serve up to people, right? This is the burnt Brussels sprouts. Like you guys twins. I'm like, no, she's in her eighties and I'm still in my forties or whatever. It was, it was, it's been great because like, I don't dye my hair. I love having lightning hair. I love it. So, this is who we are. We're living with confidence, head to toe. We're not, we're not changing a darn thing about the pigment, the shape, the size of who we are and comfort with our bodies. Using them every day is something that we totally do because it feels good. Not out of a vanity sort of thing. Right. And that makes you feel good about yourself, which I guess might feel me, I'm not saying that we're not vain or whatever. I'm just trying to say is like, I had a really hard time with the word age like a badass. It made her not want to do your podcast at first. She's like, Oh, oh, interesting. I was like, listen, I read this stuff. They seem really interesting. And they're just talking about how we live. If you were two men. And you had the same energy and the same awesome approach to life, you would not call this how to age like a badass. You'd be like, hey, let's live with some badassery. Not the word age. If we could have this whole podcast, take the word age out and say live. Live. Well, the reason

Lisa:

why though, honestly, is we call ourselves the anti anti aging podcast. So really it was a call to like, I hate the

Jane:

whole anti aging movement. Jane's

Ann:

all right. I'm just

Lauren:

saying, she's

Jane:

like, I'm contrarian to everything I say. No, no.

Lauren:

I think

Ann:

that's a brilliant thought that Jane just gave. And I totally agree. You're like, I'm just saying. Arnold

Jane:

Schwarzenegger would

Ann:

like, if somebody says, how old are you? I don't mind responding.

Jane:

Right. Arnold Schwarzenegger has a book out and he's like, got a gray grizzled beard. And he's, it says, I'm close to his face. And just, it was hair dark, I don't even know. But like, It's looking at like, he's kind of, I mean, Arnold can look polished and, you know, we've all seen him be grilled up or whatever, but he looks kind of grizzled and he's like getting, you know, props for that. We got to own the same comfortable territory. There's 20 in our family. So her 10 grandchildren, if we can help the women and the men, if we can help all understand that this is normal. Then we're going to help them want to be with partners and spouses who look like, not us, but like, you know, real selves, true selves. It's easy to live this way, self. Yeah, we talk about

Lisa:

that a lot because there is, again, it gets back to the pressure on women to look a certain way and the procedures that women feel compelled to do, the, the fad diets all the time. When what we are really trying to establish here and why we wanted you both on so desperately is because of everything you're saying. It's, it's about the way you live and eat. You don't have to think about it. It's second nature, but it's not the norm. And we do want this to be the norm. We want you to be the norm. I like the idea of crossing out the word age and putting badass mother for you may have to change it. We're going to be

Jane:

like

Lauren:

that. I think we are consulting with Jane. But it really is about, it is about

Lisa:

the anti anti aging though. Like I, I feel like, you know, like you have to grab attention. Like with a lot of the plant based world, we're doing it for health. A lot of us, not for weight loss, but weight loss is one of those things. That's very sexy. Everybody wants to lose weight. And a lot of people. Truthfully, I do need to, but like I have a problem because of our diet culture, having weight loss as a goal oftentimes when I'm coaching people, like I want them to be eating this way for health and the healthy weight will come naturally. So it's kind of like the same with aging, like it's not about anti aging, it's like embracing our aging because it's, we can't, I mean, we can't avoid it, right? So that's

Jane:

kind of like where we're coming from. No, I know exactly where you're coming from. I mean, mm-Hmm.. I'm a 58-year-old woman in America. I've always said to my kids like, I love my wrinkles. You know, like, like all these smiles and so like, so it's doing reps, like, just say it once, , I rub my rink. I love 'em, I love em. Wrinkles. All the love and the fear, the worry and the mutants is. It's my map of my love with you guys, and I, I love it. And, you know, I know my kids, like, I know I look at my mom and all I want to see is just all that she is. And I say, well,

Ann:

you know, Jane, I think because you wanted to do this interview, had me listen to, I'm not, I don't watch a lot, a lot of podcasts. I don't wear things in my ears that. Headphones. Headphones. Not hearing aids. I like the world, but. Jane Fonda. No. Julia Louis Dreyfus. Yeah. She said, they said, have you had Faisal? Whatever. And she said, that is one thing I regret. Yeah,

Lauren:

I heard that, you know, and that's, it's so interesting. And the other thing that I loved and Lisa and I have talked about this is Jane Fonda said that she's in the third act of her life. I love that. Yes. Love that. And you know, you're, you're gonna be in your fourth act of

Ann:

your life. I don't feel any different than I felt when I was 50, except I don't jump as, I mean, like, I can't jump rope as well. I can't leap

Jane:

as well.

Lauren:

You know, Jane, I wanted to really talk to you because I think that's one thing that people sometimes struggle with when they age is their sex life. We've got to get

Ann:

to the clitoris. I want to be a

Lisa:

member of the clitorati. How do I do

Lauren:

it? Talk to us about that.

Jane:

When I heard that there were 10, 000 nerves in the clitoris, like 10K, and there's only 4K in the penis. I I need to have a 10K for the 10K. We need to get this to be part of the conversation. We need to elevate this to be normalized, that we have this, we have two and a half times the capacity for pleasure than men have. And this whole world is so focused on, I mean, there's movies called Get Hard, like rated PG. Everyone just sees it, but no one's saying Get Lubricated. No. Yes. The, the 50 50 of the world, the yin yang, you have three brothers growing up. And Steve, you don't always try to be on equal size of the equation or in a Title IX era try being an athlete. Yes. So, this whole thing about grabbing a 10K for the 10K, I really wanted to focus on the clitoris and not like a diamond shape, like an ovoid, like here's the vagina. This is, that's the target for penile pleasure. It's not, so many, I mean, two thirds to three fourths of women do not experience pleasure with penetrative sex. Right. Three fourths of us aren't accessing our 10k, which is there. So I made hats and headbands that say 10k for the 10k, and they're covered in polka dots to represent the polka dot of pleasure. And when you got one of these headbands or hats, I said, please gather on 1010. on October 10th with your friends, your clitorati, and discuss these 10 questions. And I had 10 questions that people could talk about. And I had some of a pilot study with our neighborhood. Yeah. With these great women I've grown up with. I've been here since I was born. And so we had this great group of different age women. And it was just so fun to have this 10K for the 10K. And the 10K means like you can go for a walk together for 10, 000 steps. It's literally just 10 people working for 10 minutes together. And every step represents a nerve for pleasure in women. We chose to sit together for 10, 000 seconds, which was for two, two and a half hours or something. But I have, one of my friends played a, played croquet for the 10K, 10K croquet for the 10K, which was. Ooh,

Lisa:

I like that croquet. Yeah. I was very sad when I saw that I'd missed it. So are you good? Is it going to be a yearly event? I'm on

Jane:

campaign and I'm actually. It's an ongoing campaign if you're interested, I should actually

Lauren:

Yes. We can

Jane:

put it in the show notes. I'll have to put a way for people to keep accessing because the three people who discovered this 10, 000 nerves were a gynecologist, a plastic surgeon, and a gender affirming surgeon because they were doing work on female bodies. So they had to map out all the nerves and how they're innervated because they'd never done that. They, whoever they is. Had never done that. We have Viagra commercials on Monday night, Thursday night, and that's been so normalized. Male pleasure. Keep the pleasure going. Keep the pleasure going. Uh, we're not even having pleasure. It's so crazy.

Lisa:

So,

Jane:

so, so there's really been no research. And I had people, someone wrote me back and, when I, posted this on my social media. Someone said, your cookbook is in the trash. What? I, I don't, I don't touch that kind of stuff because the community takes care of someone's like, you need to get in touch with your polka dot.

Lauren:

Well,

Jane:

I mean, that's a

Lisa:

whole other conversation about our puritanical society and patriarchy and all of the above and why we don't have more comfort around. Conversations about our sex organs and pleasure and women, you know,

Lauren:

I have a question about my pleasure. So I, I haven't gone through menopause yet, but I feel like I had the first sign. I had like the little warm flash the other day and my period is getting lighter, but I've, I feel like it is harder for me to have an orgasm. What, and also I feel like I, Oh, this is very personal, but I feel like I need to share this because other people might be having this situation, but so I feel like it's harder for me to have an orgasm and then like we'll get the vibrator and then, so I feel like I'm breaking my vagina. Am I breaking my vagina by giving it too much stimulation or

Ann:

what? Jane Fonda has a really good new vibrator. Freddie Mercer's

Lauren:

Frankie and Oh, that's Frankie and Grace Oh, yes! Tracy and Frankie, I love Yes, they're

Jane:

vibrator. I love that. I, I, I know, but because she has it, because in the show they did it, but,

Ann:

oh God.

Lauren:

Okay, so why is it harder? Why is it harder for me, and why am I breaking my vagina with my vibrator?

Jane:

Okay. A couple things, and I, I pretty sure I'm in menopause, but I, and, and it just, I have no, I don't really have any symptoms, which is right. And, so the estrogen that's in my body is coming from, like, what's left in our bodies that makes estrogen, which is not your ovaries after a while, it's some of the, your fat cells. I mean, you have to have fat cells on your body. I mean, it's healthy to have that self. And so that makes a little estrogen, but it's not, you know, it's mellowed out. And like you, I occasionally have a little warm wind. I'd be like, is that warm? It

Lauren:

happened to me once. I'm like,

Jane:

oh, that's it. Like, it's just a little, just a warm wind, like a little zephyr, a little zephyr, which is fine. It has not been disruptive of anything. So, but I would not ever put menopause in the way of having pleasure. The number one sex organ in your body is your brain. Emily Nagoski, come as you are. Please, every human on earth, read that or listen to it or both. And they talk a lot about spontaneous desire and responsive desire. I mean, we're so busy and we're so distracted and we have so much going on that we don't often feel like spontaneous desire. I mean, maybe if we're just, you know. 15, 16, like, oh my gosh. You guys don't

Lisa:

schedule

Jane:

it?

Lisa:

No,

Jane:

so we have to schedule it. You have to schedule it, like, you know, put in the bid, like, hey, let's just get things, and then you strip a wire and you're, you know, if you're in a loving relationship and you can get going there, like, you never regret. Um, getting going because you can get Exactly. Responsive desire happens. A hundred percent. So will, has responsive desire may not be a hundred percent when you're, if, and you're trying to get it over the hedge when you're like, okay, just not there yet. Things aren't, things aren't all the way down there yet for whatever reason. So try to make sure that you're like in the, in the headspace that you are interested because if you're not, I mean, sometimes you can't get there for whatever reason, like what's happening around the world is really disturbing. N E Hitting. It's distracting, and some people can let go of that and go with it, but some people just, things live right here on their minds. So the other thing is, when you say, am I breaking my vagina? I certainly hope that the, the usage of whatever people are using, because there's different shapes and sizes and textures and things, it is not your vagina where the nerves are. So when you say vagina, are you talking about your vulva and your clitoris? Let's

Lauren:

use No, my clitoris, it has a little thingy on

Jane:

it. Yeah. The clitoris is kind of, it. Ha. It's almost like a sundial. Like sometimes it likes it here. Sometimes it likes it here sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes it's just not lubed enough and sometimes, Mm-Hmm., you know, something. It, it, it's kind of a moving target as my sex ed. Yeah, yeah. Yeah., Lauren: I guess. Well, I guess I shouldn't say I'm having a harder time. I think it's changed. It has changed more to the outside than the inside, more to the clitoris. I think I used to be able to have like more of a vaginal orgasm, like what you're talking about. And now it's has to be on the outside a little, you know, on the clitoris. And hang in there a little longer because it gets the blood flow coming back there. And then the vaginal orgasm, which.

Lauren:

But it happens. But it takes longer. Takes

Jane:

a little, takes a little longer, and you got to get a little bit more in that. It's almost like meditating. It gets a little bit deeper. Okay, I got to

Ann:

meditate. It's interesting

Lisa:

listening to y'all, because I'm pretty sure I'm post menopause, I'm 60 this year. And, um. Uh, my husband and I have the best sex life we ever had, but to Jane's point, I think it's has more to do with the Knowing ambitions, you know what I mean? Just the comp like we know each other so well We're comfortable but you know, if I were, you know watching the news, I wouldn't be able to you know You do have to be in the right headspace. So but I do think that it has to do with the the Just being free and not not

Jane:

feeling self conscious. Yeah, and like, you know, some people have a dog that can be like barking and or the kids are home or watching it. So, yeah, and so at least that's why I said, you know, some people have the best sex life of their lives. Fertility's not an issue, and there's no barriers, there's no concern, it's just, you know. Oh, there's so many,

Lisa:

gosh, there's so many things, I feel like we're gonna have to have you on again and again and again to address them all. Okay, so walk through your day with us. What time do you get up? Do you

Jane:

have breakfast? They're never the same.

Ann:

Oh,

Jane:

I get up. Well, some

Lisa:

things are the same. Do you not get up the same time every day? What

Jane:

time do you wake up in the morning?

Ann:

I'm pretty much 6. 30ish to 7.

Jane:

Okay. I'm between probably 7 and 8. 30. Yeah. I don't know how much my body wants to sleep and I feel lucky that I can listen to my body and let it sleep. Right. Okay, good. That's a good

Lauren:

tip. Listening to your body. And do you, do you, and do you eat breakfast every day and exercise every day? So important. It's

Ann:

my, it's true. Oh, you eat your oats. Me, I went through years and years of no breakfast, leftovers. I love leftover salad. And now. I ate a breakfast that I feel gives me important things for life. However, I had a little crazy thing that went on. We got a Peloton because our son Ted was just so passionate about it and he thought my husband would love it. And so there was, I, I, I didn't, I didn't do anything about it and then it was on sale and so I got it at Christmas and it sat there. He wasn't interested in it and I couldn't, I wasn't interested and I finally, Jane had a conference, has this women's conference in March, our daughter in law, Polly, is Wonderful. She ended up with the last speaker and she said you have to do something for 40 days to make it stick. So I decided that I would ride the Peloton for 40 days. She also said, I called her when I said I was going to do that. She said, but text me every day after you've done it. And so for 40 days, for 20 minutes. I got on the Peloton at least 20 minutes, text her every day. And then after a About the 20th day? Yeah, on the 20th day, I said, probably why 40 days? And she said, it's the power of the universe

Jane:

and it's a sacred number and it comes up in all kinds of traditions and you seem to have a universe behind

Ann:

you. And so I love it. Anyway, I kept on and I now, when I finally. stopped, I thought, I don't have to do it. And the next day I waited a little and then I thought, no, I'm going to do it. And so I have done it. So when Jane was about to talk about my breakfast, so sometimes my breakfast is later than it used to be because I exercise. Did you do the Peloton? And I not necessarily the panic. I also do maybe an hour of various other

Jane:

things. But it's just oats and kale and mushrooms and. Oh, the savory oats.

Ann:

Yes. Do something for 40 days And it's yours.

Jane:

Yes. And you saying Yep. And that occasionally I'll call my mom and be like, Hey, I'm heading the store. Do you want anything or do you wanna wanna go together?'cause we go together all the time. It's so funny. I love

Lauren:

that. Um, I do that with my daughter Jane. I have my daughters Jane, and she loves to go to the store with me.

Jane:

Oh yes. And you'd probably buy it for every, all the food for right. Sometimes Yeah. Be off of mind for me anyway. So I'll call and I'll, and it's like 1130 or something and she's like, well, I just having breakfast. So she'll, so it's not like she wakes up and has it. But our, you said our days, our days are like, I don't work in like a, a nine to five or whatever. Our life is kinda like a snake eating an egg. Like we had an event last weekend, so I was up all week long up before getting so many things dialed in, like I had to make. Flirty recipes. Well, I had to make, like, the lucky nuts, and then have them, get them, cool them, freeze them, choose, and then make the, the almond, red, or chocolate, cherry, hazelnut, stones ahead of time, cool them, freeze them, choose, and you're making for three, three dozen of all this stuff, and then, then, and you could shop for that stuff over the weekend, but then during the week, okay, let's get the, like, the potatoes, and get that all dialed in, and get those ready, and you could hasselback, and all those things you have to do to food. And then the next day, get all the, the fresh stuff and, and then the final day, like the cilantro and the berries and the things that are really fragile. So you're just organizing and prepping and storing and laying out and printing up and I mean, name tags. It's just, you know, it's like having a wedding whenever we have it. So there's a lot that goes into that. And so we'll have those events. And then we go to a way to, my brother has events twice a year, every year in March around the International Day of the Woman, which is March 9th. March 8th. Sorry. I have an event. So I've had the event for the last almost 10 years and it's never been on the 8th. It's been on like the 7th and the 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th, it's just never been on the 8th itself. I can't wait for I think next year it's going to be. I've

Ann:

been

Lauren:

to your event and it's amazing and you guys work so hard and you did a cooking demo and of course it was hilarious and of course food fell on the floor and you're like Oh, I know my mom's going to pack this up for my dad to take it on the plane.

Lisa:

And she didn't.

Lauren:

It fell on the floor. She's packing it up for Essie to take on the plane because he had to go somewhere else. Were you

Jane:

there when she took the sound resting and she was shaking it and the lid flew off and it went all over the carpeted stage of the Cleveland Clinic Wellness Institute. I can't

Lauren:

remember. Oh my God. It might have been. I remember. The things were definitely on the floor, but I mean, that's life, you know, it's always like that.

Ann:

Keeping it real. I think that if I were working and I was getting up to go to work at 6. 30 or 7, I would have a good breakfast before. I mean, I think that is a key thing and it is, uh, I think you should find a breakfast that you like that's nutritious and right and eat it every day. I mean, I just feel like that. If you don't do it, I mean, oats have got benefits that nothing else has, you know, toast, which is stupid. And,

Jane:

I mean, no, and I know I'm an Oran and I remember when I was in all those years of nursery school and doing rounds and, and being in my, in my rotations, I would take, had to take You know, have breakfast and take lunch, and like, very, the very, because your body, if you wake up at three in the morning and have a sandwich, every day your body's going to want to wake up at three in the morning and have a sandwich, but I had to get dialed into that kind of schedule. But nowadays, you know, we write cookbooks. We have YouTube. So our YouTube shoots. Like, that's a really, that's a buildup of days. So we are just, we are just event schedule dependent. And right now we are with you because we have a down week this week.

Lisa:

Oh, we're so lucky. So grateful. Oh my gosh. I just can't tell you how appreciative we are of both of you.

Jane:

You guys having this conversation about how to live like a badass. I learned from the

Lauren:

original badass herself. She is a badass. She is. Do you have any, anything else before we That we haven't already discussed.

Ann:

Yeah. You have just got to keep moving. Eating plant based and exercising. Yeah, I mean, like,

Jane:

our rotator cuffs just turn into, like, old leather belts, like, they're gonna snap, they're gonna hurt, they're gonna break, but we can do, we can figure things out, like, I've, I've seen the importance of having, like, my parents move with comfort and mobility, and sometimes it's been really helpful to have. You know. Well,

Lisa:

and I think that adaptability, I think what I'm hearing from you both is you really listen to what your body is needing, like in terms of, am I hungry, I'm going to have some breakfast. I maybe can't do that same activity I did before, or maybe 20 minutes on the Peloton is fine. They're just not forcing it, right? It sounds like you're both a little, just more

Ann:

listening. I don't think hunger has a thing to do with eating breakfast. I'm never hungry, but I eat breakfast. Um, now that I'm doing this exercise first, sometimes my breakfast is at 1030. Some people need

Jane:

to. They wake up starving. And I, like, I, and I hate even letting talk, I don't like talking about the time that we eat in the day because people think that we're like, oh, are you a 16 hour intermittent faster? Are you a 10, 10, 20? I'm like, we don't count calories. We don't count servings. We don't wear watches. We don't count steps. We don't somebody

Ann:

gave me a, one of those step county watches and I turned to be allergic to them.

Jane:

I'm allergic to them too here. That's

Lauren:

so funny. I turned off the step counting thing on my phone. I'm like, you don't need to know how much I'm walking. I'm walking plenty. Uh, you know, I'm with you, you know, I try to get a lot enough sleep, but sometimes I sleep longer. I'm lucky that I can sleep till I wake up. And, you know, I eat when I'm hungry and I try to, I definitely am trying to be better about listening to the little voice in my head and the, you know, Listening to myself for, for advice, I think that that is the beautiful thing that comes with living for a longer time. I love

Ann:

that. I would say you two are living

Jane:

well. You guys doing this together, what you're doing here, this project together. is such joy and such, it's going to give you a great lens to look through. My mom always talks about having a lens through which she looks to see life and what gives her a purpose with that. You two

Ann:

remind me, at one of Jane's last, she has a camp in the summer.

Lauren:

Play a baseball game. Cheers,

Ann:

yo. And two women at this camp. And they were in it, they were 80 and they lived in Canada, but they were in different provinces and they had this thing that they did every morning before they made their beds. They each did it wherever they lived and they did it, they would.

Jane:

It's, it's Zach Bush's exercise, you know, Zach Bush's exercise. Yeah, yeah. And they did

Ann:

it every day and it was so cute, but it is such a cool thing, something like that. And you two made me think of those two women.

Jane:

Oh, let's do it. Yeah, let's

Lisa:

start doing that.

Jane:

Well, um, one thing that I want to say that I think has, was really an enlightening thing to do recently for me is that, you know, our book came out and things went well. I mean, we were so lucky. New York Times bestseller. I, in March, I, I started trying to learn to play the guitar. I mean, my mind was suddenly just like, it blew up, and now I'm plateau, and I'm like, I'm not doing as much, but it, I relistened to all the music from my childhood, and I was like, I can't believe, like, and I went to my, like, grunge phase again.

Lisa:

What's the first song you learned to play

Jane:

on the guitar? It was an Indigo Girls, it's the lesbian ballad of Strange, Strange Fire. That's a lot of A's, E, A, E, A, E, A, E, A, E, A, E, A, E, A, E, A, E, A, E, A, E, A, E, A, E, A, E, A, E, A, E, A, E, A, E, A, E, A, E, A, E, A, E,

Lisa:

A, E, A, E, A, E, Play every song in the songbook, right?

Jane:

Doing bar chords. I cannot figure it out. My fingers are long. I can't get it. You have good guitar hands. That's

Lauren:

so good.

Lisa:

So what's the next event that you're promoting then? Would that be in?

Jane:

We have our camp for plant based women warriors, June 6th. That's up and ready to go. People love that. It's just fun. It's just, it's just a ton of fun. We have an improv class, but we don't call it improv, we call it how to improvise. And the teacher is amazing. She's like, all day long. You're always improvising. I mean, you're improvising all the time. I really,

Lauren:

I really appreciate you, especially coming on when you are hesitant to do it in, in. Absolutely. Helped so many people today. You guys are amazing. Stay plant based,

Jane:

women warriors.

Lauren:

Stay bold and eat delicious. And live like a badass mother.